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Typhoons Best Raptors?  
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10284 times:

Being reported in the latest AIR International (vol. 83, no. 3, ppg 68-72) that at the most recent "Red Flag"in Alaska that Luftwaffe Typhoons from JG74 were able to jump Raptors from 525th FS. On return to home base, a/c 30+29 had a Raptor "kill" silhouette" and 30+30 had three.

These were not "stock" Typhoons, having had a recent radar s/w upgrade, MIDS upgrade, and DASS optimisation for air combat.

Of course, USAF pilot recollections seem to be somewhat different.

[Edited 2012-09-05 05:59:37]


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10270 times:

I think this was talked about somewhere else here. But the essentials of it are that in a tightly defined scenario, namely in a tight turning dog fight in visual range, the EF can hold its own and probably then some with the F-22. This should not be a shock in certain scenarios but it is also pretty unlikely in a real combat scenario that an F-22 is going to let itself be caught in that situation. It is also fairly unlikely that most aircraft it would be facing would be put up in a configuration that would let them dog-fight at full capability (no external fuel, light weapons loads).

A far more likely scenario for the F-22 is either it defending an ally from aggressive air attacks, in which case the attackers are laden with heavy weapons/fuel to do the mission or the F-22 acting as offensive counter air as part of a larger assault against an IADS where the other side is also busy trying to fend off hundreds of incoming cruise missiles and other standoff weapons.

From a kinematic perspective there is really only so much anyone can do without going very exotic at this point. The whole point of the F-22 is to avoid that turning fight.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10252 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 1):
I think this was talked about somewhere else here.
Red Flag Raptor Vs. Typhoon (by wingman Aug 2 2012 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

While the F-22 rule the BVR combat, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor

[Edited 2012-09-05 07:07:07]


“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10251 times:

BigJKU -

Take your points and I agree that the whole F-22 concept is to avoid a close-in turning fight and do it BVR. In fact the Typhoons had no external fuel and in that scenario probably easily out-turn the Raptor. Not so sure about the no external fuel in a real scenario, Typhoon is pretty good on internal fuel. What was shocking to me in the piece was the assertion that Raptor really only has about 30-35 minutes on station before bingo. I thought it had better legs. And there is the lingering comm problem issue.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10241 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 2):
In a dogfight the Typhoon is without a doubt better.

So, where are the stats on how many kills the Raptors had on Typhoons?


Most likely the Raptors were handicapped by the ROE. Red Flag is a learning experience... they learned something.


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10231 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 4):
Most likely the Raptors were handicapped by the ROE. Red Flag is a learning experience... they learned something.

This is very important as well. No one is going to learn anything getting blasted from 50km's away by a plane they can't see.


User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 5):
No one is going to learn anything getting blasted from 50km's away by a plane they can't see.

That made me chuckle, good stuff.

I would like to know how many kills the Raptor got on the Typhoon as well. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10177 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 5):
No one is going to learn anything getting blasted from 50km's away by a plane they can't see.

Eventually someone will figure out a tactic to track stealth aircraft, and will get the jump on the F-22. Refining dog fighting skills now is better than learning the hard way later.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10113 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 4):
Quoting autothrust (Reply 2):
In a dogfight the Typhoon is without a doubt better.

So, where are the stats on how many kills the Raptors had on Typhoons?

A very good question and not made clear in the article. However, it did say the Typhoon/Raptor engagements were limited to BFM (Basic Fighter Manoeuvring) situations, which I think implicitly puts it in the WVR sphere. Will be interesting to see if, in the next Red Flag, Typhoons will be deployed with Meteor, which is a BVR weapon. Or Meteor simulators, which I am sure are coming as well.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 7):
Eventually someone will figure out a tactic to track stealth aircraft, and will get the jump on the F-22. Refining dog fighting skills now is better than learning the hard way later.

Well, you can note that they're there (note: not there there...) with L-band radar, but can't track accurately enough. Bi-static radars CAN track them, but setting up an airborne bi-static situation in combat seems difficult. So something beyond X-band, presumably. Or, using -band and enhanced computer processing. It's amazing how much information can be extracted from any image given enough processing power.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10082 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
Not so sure about the no external fuel in a real scenario, Typhoon is pretty good on internal fuel. What was shocking to me in the piece was the assertion that Raptor really only has about 30-35 minutes on station before bingo. I thought it had better legs. And there is the lingering comm problem issue.

Typhoon likely goes to the scene of the battle and jettisons tanks before engaging. How much on station time the Raptor has would depend on how far it had to fly to get to the scene of the action. The shorter the distance to the fight zone, the longer it can stay on station, and that would hold true for any air-to-air fighter.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9894 times:

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 9):
Typhoon likely goes to the scene of the battle and jettisons tanks before engaging

Apparently for Red Flag the Typhoons took no tanks, but were escorted TATL by a Luftwaffe A310 MRTT.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9857 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
Apparently for Red Flag the Typhoons took no tanks, but were escorted TATL by a Luftwaffe A310 MRTT.

I can't imagine that they didn't carry ferry tanks on the trip across the Atlantic, if the MRTT went tech or there was some other malfunction the Typhoons would have needed to make a divert field. They may not have utilized them for exercise, but they would have used them for the transit to and from Nellis.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9816 times:

Not to mention that the F-22 isn't equipped with a HOBS weapon like Typhoon is; they only JUST begun testing of the AIM-9X Block II, which among other things, has LOAL (lock on after launch). AIM-9M and -9X Block I are LOBL (lock on before launch).

By the time they've upgrade F-22 to include AIM-9X, Block II will be operational. Once its MLDs are upgraded, then it will have significant improvements in WVR lethality.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9732 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 5):
No one is going to learn anything getting blasted from 50km's away by a plane they can't see.

The F-22 is don't matter how many times you guys repeat it not invisible.

The PIRATE Sensor is a Quantum well infrared photodetector and can detect the F-22 (frontal detection range up to 93km) , aswell as Pretorian can detect Stealth Planes and AESA Radars with LPI.

The IRIS-T is able to lock on a match and you can shoot down planes behind you with this weapon, even a F-22 is a easy target for the this weapon. (only if the F-22 is within range of course)

Quoting Oroka (Reply 4):
Most likely the Raptors were handicapped by the ROE
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 12):
Not to mention that the F-22 isn't equipped with a HOBS weapon like Typhoon

Sounds like excuses. Who's fault is it? In this matter you guys keep repeating the Typhoon is lacking of an AESA so the Typhoon is handicapped as well. Oh also the METEOR is still missing and 3-D Thrust Vectoring too.

[Edited 2012-09-06 00:07:47]


“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9640 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 13):
Sounds like excuses.

The Raptor is limited to what it is allowed to do in pretty much every joint exercise. They Typhoon is handicapped because it does not have an AESA radar (or stealth, or thrust vectoring)... not because it isnt allowed to turn it on. Discounting valid points as 'excuses' smells of a fanboy point of view.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9629 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):

The Raptor is limited to what it is allowed to do in pretty much every joint exercise.

That applies of course only to the F-22.   

Did you know that the AOE in Typhoon is limited normally but could exceed 90° ?

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
Discounting valid points

according to you  
Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
excuses' smells of a fanboy

for me it smells like cheap and totally irrelevant(in the Red Flag competition) excuses of fanboys without any idea about the Typhoon.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9609 times:

Were the F-22s allowed to use its thrust vectoring features, and its supercruise features?

User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2777 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9580 times:

I always love the fact that people forget about the little thing called a ehhh... pilot? Pilot skill matters just as much, I'd say...  


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9561 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 7):
Eventually someone will figure out a tactic to track stealth aircraft, and will get the jump on the F-22. Refining dog fighting skills now is better than learning the hard way later.

Possibly, possibly not. As someone detailed above it is not that simple, certainly not in an airborne system particularly, to get the resolution you need to fire a weapon.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 13):
The F-22 is don't matter how many times you guys repeat it not invisible.

The PIRATE Sensor is a Quantum well infrared photodetector and can detect the F-22 (frontal detection range up to 93km) , aswell as Pretorian can detect Stealth Planes and AESA Radars with LPI.

The IRIS-T is able to lock on a match and you can shoot down planes behind you with this weapon, even a F-22 is a easy target for the this weapon. (only if the F-22 is within range of course)

I have never once said it is invisible. It is much harder to track and engage at range than the EF and in most full up realistic scenarios (both sides with AWACS support, neither knowing exactly what it is going to face in the scenario and being part of either an attack package or defending against said attack) that is going to be a major advantage. Modern radar will reduce but not eliminate this advantage.

The IRIS-T is a great missile, if you can get within 25km's. Otherwise you need to use a radar guided weapon (or develop a new IR guided weapon with greater range) which is an issue one would have to resolve.

I tend to side with the nations that had the chance to buy either the Eurofighter or the F-35 and choose the F-35 like Japan just did. They basically need an air defense fighter and for that mission they took an F-22 light over the Eurofighter so clearly some people paid to make these decisions see a good deal of value in VLO now and in the future.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7846 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9408 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 13):
The F-22 is don't matter how many times you guys repeat it not invisible.

I was told the RN's sampson radar fitted to the Type 45's pick up F-22 pretty easy and form a long way out.


User currently offlinechecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9298 times:

I love reading about how this radar or that radar CAN detect F-22's. Bottom line is that almost any radar can detect them...nothing special there. This has been the same all the way back to the F-117 days. Those that keep up with the conversations about radar detection should really educate themselves about it first. This will allow you to bring decent discussion about it rather than trying to convince us all a specific radar can detect them...of course it can. Its how the stealth features play into it that makes the difference between the radar being able to tell the F-22 apart from a bird or clutter.

IRST sensors are a great feature that many companies threw onto their aircraft after the soviets started doing it. Bottom line is that it isn't the end all, be all sensor that all of you think it is. You want to say that the even the F-22 is an easy target for a weapon system...but if you cannot get the weapon system to track it in the first place...even IR......then its not so easy is it??

As far as the Tiffy's 'besting' Raptor's...I'm sure it happened. Its happened before also. But what kind of training relevance is it to completely clean up your aircraft, just so you can perform to 'bag' a Raptor? None...thats the answer. That's exactly what they did. See a lot of clean birds flying around warzone's these days?? Nope.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1610 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9253 times:

Quoting checksixx (Reply 20):
Bottom line is that almost any radar can detect them...nothing special there.

Not true for a lot of people the F-22 cannot be detected, it's invisible to the radar or ir or any kind of system or sensor.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 20):
IRST sensors are a great feature that many companies threw onto their aircraft after the soviets

That's nonsense, you can't compare a 3rd Generation QWIP which act's like a radar and can TWS multiple targets to a soviet IRST Sensor which even needed a Laser to get range)

Quoting checksixx (Reply 20):
but if you cannot get the weapon system to track it in the first place...

Why you cannot track it in the first place?

Quoting checksixx (Reply 20):
completely clean up your aircraft

Whatever a clean aircraft is for you...

I'm not trying to say the Typhoon is better then the F-22 because it isn't. However the F-22 is not invincible and does not have in every discipline a gold medal



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinelegs From Australia, joined Jun 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9213 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
use its thrust vectoring features

That's a pretty interesting question actually. My first thought was that the control laws for the nozzles would be pretty much embedded into the flight control code. But on second thought, perhaps there is a lock out mechanism in case of a failure. At any rate, I seriously doubt that the nozzles would have been disengaged.

I plan to see if I can find out definitively, though I dont really hold much hope that the info is in the public domain.


User currently offlineacontador From Chile, joined Jul 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9161 times:
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Quoting autothrust (Reply 21):
Not true for a lot of people the F-22 cannot be detected, it's invisible to the radar or ir or any kind of system or sensor.


There are no 'invisible' aircraft to radar, unless you come up with a design which is made entirely of radar-transparent materials, that is including the pilot, engines, weapons...and that's not going to happen for a while.

What you can do (and the designers have been doing in the designs incorporating stealth features) is reduce the radar cross section (RCS) of the aircraft up to a point where with current technology it's radar returns become so weak that they cannot be differentiated from clutter or other noise in the radar picture

There are many features that aircraft designers can use in order to achieve a very low RCS, some unclassified and apparent, like radar absorbent materials, modelling of the shape of the aircraft and careful positioning and shaping of skin-braking features (like access panels), with some other still highly classified.

With improving radar technology the threshold of the lowest RCS detectable by a radar system in a given scenario (geometry of flight path towards radar station, radar frequency, scanning method, environmental variables, etc.) is always getting lower, so it is only a matter of time until radars catch up with (current) stealth technology.

In other words, if you put a modern radar 10 feet from a Raptor (form the side) and point the scanning beam towards the aircraft at full power, I suspect that you most probably will get a nice radar return on your scope. But since this is not really an operationally relevant scenario, for the time being the low RCS of a Raptor is one of the facilitators that greatly improve the lethality of the system.



Just sit back, relax and have a glass of Merlot...enjoy your life!
User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2648 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9141 times:
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Low RCS is always optimized to be achieved given certain parameters. In pretty much all modern stealth and "stealthy" aircraft it is designed so the RCS is lowest when viewing from the front/bottom front. In essence, it is done so that when an F-22 is approaching you, you will get a very low RCS from your viewing angle. If the F-22 decides to maneuver in such a way that its top side is directly perpendicular to you then you will get a very nice radar return.

25 windy95 : But it is a good thought that the Raptor and Typhoon will be flying side by side in real world scenerios. They make quite a combo that I cannot see a
26 checksixx : You just got schooled by acontador above so I'll leave this one alone. Please actually read what people say before posting...I NEVER compared ANYTHIN
27 ebj1248650 : No fighter is invincible and I doubt anyone here would argue with that point. The point is the F-22 has far fewer "weakness", for lack of a better wa
28 BigJKU : I have never once said it is invisible. It is much harder to track and engage at range than the EF and in most full up realistic scenarios (both side
29 epten : Then why did they bother with thrust vectoring? Why all those fancy post stall maneuvers?
30 Oroka : Because they learned in Vietnam that some times even the best jet will get jumped.
31 Powerslide : When the enemy sends up more aircraft than the Raptors have missiles for, it will have to switch to guns to finish off the rest. Having superior hand
32 spudh : I doubt any fighter pilot would willingly close to guns range while on the offensive. The gun is a weapon of last resort in a defensive posture, if y
33 ThePointblank : Indeed, the best fighter pilots know when to engage or not engage depending on circumstances. Having the performance to dictate this is important.
34 EagleBoy : I'm sure the USAF would have provided them if they were the victors...... .....in reality knowing that the F-22 can be beaten in a 'knife fight in a
35 Powerslide : The Raptor community won't lose any sleep at night, they still have the biggest and badest toy in the skies. Wars aren't fought with handicaps placed
36 EagleBoy : Exactly.....everyone wants to 'beat' a Raptor......they are in the top spot and know it.
37 garysted : Gents, Followed this thread with interest. Although I don't wish to get involved in any 'which is the best' discussion, there is a couple of points th
38 BigJKU : I am not sure how useful PIRATE will be excepting in controlled circumstances. Simply put if the Raptor's knew the other side had the capability they
39 ThePointblank : Indeed, the exercises occur under very controlled conditions, often with tons of conditions set. Had it been a real shooting fight, it would most lik
40 connies4ever : I'm not so sure about that. Domestic politics played a big role in EF's development: the need to preserve a viable military aircraft industry, as wel
41 Post contains images Devilfish : Latest article I read said they were getting "too much" oxygen!
42 BigJKU : Would not really apply to Japan. They were not part of the development program and as far as I know don't really have a big piece of the production o
43 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Typhoons are truly impressive. I have seen them doing flying displays many times at air shows. I was once invited by an Italian Air Force pilot to sit
44 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : The British don't like something called "Euro..." Wikipedia: On 2 September 1998, a naming ceremony was held at Farnborough, United Kingdom. This saw
45 BigJKU : The differences are mostly stealth, operating altitude and speed. The Raptor is basically designed to engage (and disengage) from the slower and non-
46 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Thank you. I thought the Eurofighters and Typhoons were the same but I wasn't sure. It is just a matter of changing the name as I see. I was happy to
47 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : There are 2-seat trainer variants, at least the RAF has one-seat fighters and two-seat trainers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon_var
48 BigJKU : Oh, they are. I misread your question. I thought you asked the difference between Eurofighters and Raptors. Disregard my answer.
49 Post contains links connies4ever : That's amusing, the British weren't shy about applying the name "Lightning" to their first true supersonic interceptor, even though during WWII the A
50 wvsuperhornet : The US airforce never shows its aircraft's full capabilities during exercises. Not saying the typhoon isn't a good aircraft it is but you have had pi
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