HIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6960 times:
Hello,
Being that both VC-25's, 2800 and 2900 are Nearly 23 Years Old, and what is currently offered by A & B, Is it imminent that the USAF will procure replacement Presidential Aircraft within the Near Future?
According to Wikipedia:
"Future
These aircraft are expected to be replaced as they have become less cost-effective to operate. The USAF Air Mobility Command is looking into possible replacements and press coverage suggested that the USAF would consider the Boeing 747-8 and the Airbus A380 from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS).[11] On January 7, 2009, the USAF Materiel Command issued a new Sources Sought notice for a replacement aircraft to enter service by 2017 with an additional two aircraft to follow in 2019 and 2021.[12] As of January 2009, Boeing is the only aircraft manufacturer interested in supplying the replacement aircraft,[13] and is reported to be exploring a 787 option also.[14] On January 28, 2009, EADS North America confirmed the company will not respond to the US Air Force notice, as assembling only three planes in the US would not make financial sense.[15]"
787 Seems rather Small for what is Needed. The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.
ZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1499 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6900 times:
read on one of the sites the other day, the the replacement will begin in 2017 and that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4952 posts, RR: 15 Reply 3, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6798 times:
Belongs in military forum.
Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 1): read on one of the sites the other day, the the replacement will begin in 2017 and that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,
Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14315 posts, RR: 26 Reply 5, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6696 times:
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter): 787 Seems rather Small for what is Needed. The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.
They'll need 747 size or bigger. Sure electronics have gotten smaller, but there is also need for more of them. I imagine the Air Force will also want more capacity for security staff, aides, and press.
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2): - 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.
You're talking about a fleet that must maintain 100% readiness and reliability.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
iFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6622 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6): You guys got a point. I wonder what the window configs will look like
we planned that
And on the windows, probably what they look like on the average 748i. The ones on the current VC-25 looks a lot like the 742 does.. Except for the upper deck, which my guess with look similar to what it looks like on the VC-25, no windows due to electronics.
HIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6554 times:
Quoting AF185 (Reply 7): Air Force One livery on an A380? I think one can dream
Airbus Already stated it will not be Financially Viable for them.
Also with the Tanker Issue back in 2008
"Northrop Grumman and EADS then won in 2008, only to have government auditors block the award after Boeing protested that the evaluation had been too subjective."
HIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6507 times:
The current VC-25's have 747-400 Engines on there. Much More Powerful than the standard -200 Engines. I Guess its needed to lift all those extra Mods on Board. It Also Cost More than a 747-8, in 1990 Dollars!
So Imagine How Much New 747-8 Air Force One will Cost, times 3.
iFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6507 times:
Quoting AF185 (Reply 7): though I'd be interested to know why 3 are needed?
Well the current ones are barely 20 years old, if you have three then you can use each one less, let it have more maintenance time and possibly get a longer life span out of it.
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6140 posts, RR: 25 Reply 13, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6282 times:
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2): - 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.
Currently an E-4B is available as a standby for overseas trips and if one of the two VC-25 have to go in for heavy maintenance.
Since the four E-4B are not going to be replaced with similar B747 frame aircraft and are expected to be retired in 2015, the Presidential fleet will require three aircraft, not two, to maintain the current capability.
Six aircraft are planned to be replaced with three new builds.
This current thread has some useful information on the AF1 replacement process
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7433 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6139 times:
Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 8): The ones on the current VC-25 looks a lot like the 742 does.. Except for the upper deck, which my guess with look similar to what it looks like on the VC-25, no windows due to electronics.
The 748 has around double the floor area of the 742 on the upper deck. I'll bet if utilized carefully, that extra space upstairs can provide much better communications... it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2236 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5858 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 15): The 748 has around double the floor area of the 742 on the upper deck. I'll bet if utilized carefully, that extra space upstairs can provide much better communications... it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing.
As you said, with todays equipment reduced in size, they could probably incorporate a war room even extended into the "attic space" if they wanted. The 748i could be a very formidable White House / military platform if done right.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5820 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 9): Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6140 posts, RR: 25 Reply 18, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5814 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17): If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.
Except that EADS has opted out of bidding on the contract. You can't buy an A-380 if the manufacturer doesn't want to sell you one and won't give you a place in the production line.
Frankly I wouldn't blame any company for choosing to not bid on such a contract. The oversight, the requirements for US military security clearances for people working on the plane, the constant change orders - all make dealing with the most difficult airline customer in the world much easier.
I guess the USAF could wait until used A-380s come on the market.
One of the other advantages to having 3 is cuz the one that the president is on will never fly alone. So they would need 2 of them to be 100% ready at a time.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 20, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5619 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 9): Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.
Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.
You do understand that the current two VC-25As (B-747) replaced two VC-137Cs (B-707)? The VC-25 provided something like 3 X the floor space the VC-137 had.
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 11): Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.
If that is all, then it is a bargan (at $700M each). Remember, had the fleet of VH-72s been bought they would have cost some $500M each.... for a helio!
j.mo From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 640 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5485 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17): If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.
Except for they still want it to look good.
JM
What is the difference between Fighter pilots and God? God never thought he was a fighter pilot.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5455 times:
Quoting j.mo (Reply 21): Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.
Except for they still want it to look good.
JM
Agreed. The A380 is technically wonderful but it lacks the elegance of a 747 in any configuration. The 747 just has some classic lines to it.
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2529 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4859 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20): If that is all, then it is a bargan (at $700M each). Remember, had the fleet of VH-72s been bought they would have cost some $500M each.... for a helio!
The truth on that program still needs to come out. A), a handful of people ought to go to jail, and B) a lawsuit on behalf of the US taxpayer needs to be levied against somebody what ultimately became an egregious financial gift to Canada courtesy of the taxpayer. I don't know about you, but I'd like to have bought one or two of those helicopters at those prices.
Even in their present, final form these 9 helicopters were still better than what HMX presently has, and not only could do everything that the current fleet could, they could do so much more given the more modern airframes. I believe Obama was looking for a piece of low hanging fruit when he cancelled this program, but let us make no mistake about it, it will only cost us more in the long run and in turn, it will just be Boeing making the same VH-71 aircraft instead of LM, because it is still the best medium lift platform in the world.
Quote: The nine US101 helicopters as well as additional spare parts were purchased at a cost of around $164 million. That price includes shipping, handling, and engineering support.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6016 posts, RR: 55 Reply 24, posted (7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4758 times:
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2): - 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.
That man travels heavy. When Clinton visited Copenhagen some 15 years ago he arrived on two VC-25A and three C-5B.
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 11): The current VC-25's have 747-400 Engines on there. Much More Powerful than the standard -200 Engines. I Guess its needed to lift all those extra Mods on Board. It Also Cost More than a 747-8, in 1990 Dollars!
So Imagine How Much New 747-8 Air Force One will Cost, times 3.
Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.
The extra cost over a standard 747-8 is mostly defence and comms stuff which we don't know much about. That stuff is constantly exchanged or upgraded to state of the art on the VC-25s (and also E-4s), and it will simply be transferred to the new frames.
- And of course, on the new frames it will also be exchanged and upgraded many times over the life cycle of those planes. At a huge, but undisclosed cost to the taxpayers.
A more optimistic version is that finally peace breaks out on planet Earth, and consequently the AF1 role is taken over by a good old C-20H Gulfstream. Probably too optimistic?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
25 bikerthai: The only way peace will break out on Earth is when there is a conflict on another planet. By then you'll need something with warp drive . . . an the
26 Oroka: In todays world, couldnt the POTUS ride a 787 sized jet, and have a C-17 with a palletized whitehouse in the vicinity? This option would leverage the
27 bikerthai: Any way you look at it, an extra C-17 for the prez is still more expensive than a 747-8 specially when that production line is shutting down. The les
28 rcair1: This only applies if you assume the comm suites of current aircraft have not been upgraded already. I assume they have - so if there is not enough ro
29 bikerthai: For COM suites, miniaturization only applies to circuitry and digitization. The basic physics of sending radio waves are the same. For HF and UHF you
30 rcair1: Not entirely true. UHF digital system (not sure there is an HF digital system) tend to be quite a bit lower power. The S/N ratio is enough better you
31 scbriml: I'm sure if Lockheed or Grumman wanted to bid with a plane based on the A380 that Airbus would sell them two or three. EADS did say they wouldn't bid
32 bikerthai: Yeah, I see this with over air Digital TV signal. But of course, if you keep the old power output requirement, you can extend your range . bt
33 kanban: not so... the secret service will watch the plane and insist on background checks even if it's a green plane being delivered to an outfitter. The sec
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