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Air Force One Replacement  
User currently offlineHIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11322 times:

Hello,

Being that both VC-25's, 2800 and 2900 are Nearly 23 Years Old, and what is currently offered by A & B, Is it imminent that the USAF will procure replacement Presidential Aircraft within the Near Future?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_VC-25

According to Wikipedia:
"Future
These aircraft are expected to be replaced as they have become less cost-effective to operate. The USAF Air Mobility Command is looking into possible replacements and press coverage suggested that the USAF would consider the Boeing 747-8 and the Airbus A380 from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS).[11] On January 7, 2009, the USAF Materiel Command issued a new Sources Sought notice for a replacement aircraft to enter service by 2017 with an additional two aircraft to follow in 2019 and 2021.[12] As of January 2009, Boeing is the only aircraft manufacturer interested in supplying the replacement aircraft,[13] and is reported to be exploring a 787 option also.[14] On January 28, 2009, EADS North America confirmed the company will not respond to the US Air Force notice, as assembling only three planes in the US would not make financial sense.[15]"

787 Seems rather Small for what is Needed. The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

It was left off from 2009. Any News as of then?

Regards,

HIRSCH777

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11263 times:

read on one of the sites the other day, the the replacement will begin in 2017 and that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,


NZ 787-9 flying between PVG - AKL ! CAN'T WAIT!!
User currently offlineHIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11172 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 1):
that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,

- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11161 times:

Belongs in military forum.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 1):
read on one of the sites the other day, the the replacement will begin in 2017 and that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,

Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11113 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.

There are two of the current version, maybe they figure they can get a longer life out of them if they have three.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11059 times:

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):
787 Seems rather Small for what is Needed. The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

They'll need 747 size or bigger. Sure electronics have gotten smaller, but there is also need for more of them. I imagine the Air Force will also want more capacity for security staff, aides, and press.

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

You're talking about a fleet that must maintain 100% readiness and reliability.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11021 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 4):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.

There are two of the current version, maybe they figure they can get a longer life out of them if they have three.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

You're talking about a fleet that must maintain 100% readiness and reliability.

You guys got a point. I wonder what the window configs will look like



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11009 times:

The B748 would look stunning in the Air Force One livery... though I'd be interested to know why 3 are needed?  Confused

[Edited 2012-09-07 00:06:10]

User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10984 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
You guys got a point. I wonder what the window configs will look like

we planned that  

And on the windows, probably what they look like on the average 748i. The ones on the current VC-25 looks a lot like the 742 does.. Except for the upper deck, which my guess with look similar to what it looks like on the VC-25, no windows due to electronics.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39851 posts, RR: 74
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10932 times:

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):
The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

  
Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineHIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10916 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 7):
Air Force One livery on an A380? I think one can dream

Airbus Already stated it will not be Financially Viable for them.

Also with the Tanker Issue back in 2008
"Northrop Grumman and EADS then won in 2008, only to have government auditors block the award after Boeing protested that the evaluation had been too subjective."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/business/25tanker.html


HIRSCH777


User currently offlineHIRSCH777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10869 times:

The current VC-25's have 747-400 Engines on there. Much More Powerful than the standard -200 Engines. I Guess its needed to lift all those extra Mods on Board. It Also Cost More than a 747-8, in 1990 Dollars!

So Imagine How Much New 747-8 Air Force One will Cost, times 3.

Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.


User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10869 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 7):
though I'd be interested to know why 3 are needed?

Well the current ones are barely 20 years old, if you have three then you can use each one less, let it have more maintenance time and possibly get a longer life span out of it.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 10644 times:

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

Currently an E-4B is available as a standby for overseas trips and if one of the two VC-25 have to go in for heavy maintenance.

Since the four E-4B are not going to be replaced with similar B747 frame aircraft and are expected to be retired in 2015, the Presidential fleet will require three aircraft, not two, to maintain the current capability.

Six aircraft are planned to be replaced with three new builds.

This current thread has some useful information on the AF1 replacement process

Air Force One & Marine One (by JayinKitsap Aug 10 2012 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

[Edited 2012-09-07 03:33:05]

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10550 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 7):
The B748 would look stunning in the Air Force One livery

Indeed.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8480 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10501 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 8):
The ones on the current VC-25 looks a lot like the 742 does.. Except for the upper deck, which my guess with look similar to what it looks like on the VC-25, no windows due to electronics.

The 748 has around double the floor area of the 742 on the upper deck. I'll bet if utilized carefully, that extra space upstairs can provide much better communications... it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing.


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10220 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
The 748 has around double the floor area of the 742 on the upper deck. I'll bet if utilized carefully, that extra space upstairs can provide much better communications... it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing.

As you said, with todays equipment reduced in size, they could probably incorporate a war room even extended into the "attic space" if they wanted. The 748i could be a very formidable White House / military platform if done right.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7264 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10182 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.

If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10176 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.

Except that EADS has opted out of bidding on the contract. You can't buy an A-380 if the manufacturer doesn't want to sell you one and won't give you a place in the production line.

Frankly I wouldn't blame any company for choosing to not bid on such a contract. The oversight, the requirements for US military security clearances for people working on the plane, the constant change orders - all make dealing with the most difficult airline customer in the world much easier.

I guess the USAF could wait until used A-380s come on the market.


User currently offlineMrCazzy From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10000 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 4):

One of the other advantages to having 3 is cuz the one that the president is on will never fly alone. So they would need 2 of them to be 100% ready at a time.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12135 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9981 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.

You do understand that the current two VC-25As (B-747) replaced two VC-137Cs (B-707)? The VC-25 provided something like 3 X the floor space the VC-137 had.

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 11):
Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.

If that is all, then it is a bargan (at $700M each). Remember, had the fleet of VH-72s been bought they would have cost some $500M each.... for a helio!


User currently offlinej.mo From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9847 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.

Except for they still want it to look good.  

JM



What is the difference between Fighter pilots and God? God never thought he was a fighter pilot.
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 879 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9818 times:

Quoting j.mo (Reply 21):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.

Except for they still want it to look good.

JM

Agreed. The A380 is technically wonderful but it lacks the elegance of a 747 in any configuration. The 747 just has some classic lines to it.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9221 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
If that is all, then it is a bargan (at $700M each). Remember, had the fleet of VH-72s been bought they would have cost some $500M each.... for a helio!

The truth on that program still needs to come out. A), a handful of people ought to go to jail, and B) a lawsuit on behalf of the US taxpayer needs to be levied against somebody what ultimately became an egregious financial gift to Canada courtesy of the taxpayer. I don't know about you, but I'd like to have bought one or two of those helicopters at those prices.

Even in their present, final form these 9 helicopters were still better than what HMX presently has, and not only could do everything that the current fleet could, they could do so much more given the more modern airframes. I believe Obama was looking for a piece of low hanging fruit when he cancelled this program, but let us make no mistake about it, it will only cost us more in the long run and in turn, it will just be Boeing making the same VH-71 aircraft instead of LM, because it is still the best medium lift platform in the world.




http://defensetech.org/2012/04/19/oh...te-of-the-marines-vh-71-fleet/

Quote:
The nine US101 helicopters as well as additional spare parts were purchased at a cost of around $164 million. That price includes shipping, handling, and engineering support.

Read more:

http://defensetech.org/2011/06/28/fi...ne-one-choppers/#ixzz27URogmNf
Defense.org

http://defensetech.org/2011/06/28/fi...e-canada-buys-marine-one-choppers/







[Edited 2012-09-25 07:13:03]

User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6429 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9121 times:

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

That man travels heavy. When Clinton visited Copenhagen some 15 years ago he arrived on two VC-25A and three C-5B.

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 11):
The current VC-25's have 747-400 Engines on there. Much More Powerful than the standard -200 Engines. I Guess its needed to lift all those extra Mods on Board. It Also Cost More than a 747-8, in 1990 Dollars!

So Imagine How Much New 747-8 Air Force One will Cost, times 3.

Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.

The extra cost over a standard 747-8 is mostly defence and comms stuff which we don't know much about. That stuff is constantly exchanged or upgraded to state of the art on the VC-25s (and also E-4s), and it will simply be transferred to the new frames.

- And of course, on the new frames it will also be exchanged and upgraded many times over the life cycle of those planes. At a huge, but undisclosed cost to the taxpayers.

A more optimistic version is that finally peace breaks out on planet Earth, and consequently the AF1 role is taken over by a good old C-20H Gulfstream. Probably too optimistic?



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2102 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9186 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 24):
A more optimistic version is that finally peace breaks out on planet Earth,

The only way peace will break out on Earth is when there is a conflict on another planet.
By then you'll need something with warp drive . . . an the price of 3 "Earth Force One" will be a gazillion dollars   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9197 times:

In todays world, couldnt the POTUS ride a 787 sized jet, and have a C-17 with a palletized whitehouse in the vicinity? This option would leverage the entire C-17 fleet and free up (V)C-787s for carting around lesser members because it is not jammed full of uber expensive gear. The president flys with a fleet already... maintenance would be cheaper due to the KC-787s not needing uber secure facilities, and a larger fleet replacing the C-32s.

User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2102 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9239 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
and have a C-17

Any way you look at it, an extra C-17 for the prez is still more expensive than a 747-8 specially when that production line is shutting down.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
lesser members

The lesser members, AKA the press core would rather be on the same plane as the prez.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
the KC-787s not needing uber secure facilities,

The uber secure facility has nothing to do with the size of the airplane, it has to do with the prez. The difference between tarmac requirement for the 787 and the 747 is not much compared to the projected security zone required by the prez.

If you want to down size, a 777 would be a much better solution than a 787 because the aluminum skin will make it much cheaper to modify for all the "add-ons" that you will be adding on.

Don't know how a 787 handle the EMP requirement. But my guess is an all aluminum 777 would be easier to harden for EMP protection.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1317 posts, RR: 52
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9050 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing

This only applies if you assume the comm suites of current aircraft have not been upgraded already. I assume they have - so if there is not enough room, it is because they need more stuff, not old big stuff.

However, EMP protected comms tends to be much larger than, say, your Droid or Iphone.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 24):
That stuff is constantly exchanged or upgraded to state of the art on the VC-25s (and also E-4s), and it will simply be transferred to the new frames.

Yup.

It'll be a 748. Realistically, not other options. 4 engines. US made. Biggest you can get. Bet a cup-o-joe on it.



rcair1
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2102 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9043 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 28):
comm suites of current aircraft have not been upgraded already. I assume they have - so if there is not enough room,

For COM suites, miniaturization only applies to circuitry and digitization. The basic physics of sending radio waves are the same. For HF and UHF you need the same amount of energy to send the same signal for a certain distance. The power supply and transmitter would not have been able to be reduced by that much.

With digitization, you can get more band width with the signal you have. But then you are sending a ton more information on those signal now-a-days.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1317 posts, RR: 52
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8990 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 29):
For HF and UHF you need the same amount of energy to send the same signal for a certain distance. The power supply and transmitter would not have been able to be reduced by that much.

Not entirely true. UHF digital system (not sure there is an HF digital system) tend to be quite a bit lower power. The S/N ratio is enough better you can do so.

For instance, the VHF analog radios I use are 50 watt. The UHF digital ones - 5. The UHF had restricted range compared to teh VHF, but it is not linear.



rcair1
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12488 posts, RR: 46
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8973 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Except that EADS has opted out of bidding on the contract. You can't buy an A-380 if the manufacturer doesn't want to sell you one and won't give you a place in the production line.

I'm sure if Lockheed or Grumman wanted to bid with a plane based on the A380 that Airbus would sell them two or three. EADS did say they wouldn't bid, but that doesn't mean another bid couldn't be based on the A380.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Frankly I wouldn't blame any company for choosing to not bid on such a contract. The oversight, the requirements for US military security clearances for people working on the plane, the constant change orders - all make dealing with the most difficult airline customer in the world much easier.

Problem solved if someone else bids but uses your plane.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2102 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8961 times:

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 30):

Not entirely true. UHF digital system (not sure there is an HF digital system) tend to be quite a bit lower power.

  

Yeah, I see this with over air Digital TV signal. But of course, if you keep the old power output requirement, you can extend your range    .

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3493 posts, RR: 27
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8968 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 32):
Problem solved if someone else bids but uses your plane


not so... the secret service will watch the plane and insist on background checks even if it's a green plane being delivered to an outfitter. The second problem which has be stated ad nauseum is there are too many structural and systems changes (like wiring) that preforming on a flown green plane means expensive dis-assembly and rework.. AF1 a/c are purpose built from the first assembly point to eliminate the rework effort. Boeing knows because we screwed up on the first 747 and had to strip it down to skins, stringers and ribs and re-assemble.. the cost was enormous.

while some think one could take any commercial plane and modify it in an outfitting shop, the basic facts are that is the most expensive way to go.


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