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New Chinese Stealth Fighter  
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 21925 times:

While still in doubt, more images are emerging, and this is exactly how the J-20 became common knowledge.

Image from 2011
http://i.minus.com/iIr9BBv72vhpw.jpg

Concept image
http://i.minus.com/iXSBd0FxxppmS.jpg

Recently seen on the road
http://i.minus.com/iZmXKOt0laJpV.jpg

http://i.minus.com/ibm2t0GU3OfKsJ.jpg

http://i.minus.com/iRKPEhUR1rM2c.png

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 21903 times:

It doesn't look to dissimilar from the F22!


If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 21774 times:

Will China build both or have a fly-off?

User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21688 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 1):
It doesn't look to dissimilar from the F22!

It looks like a combination of YF-22 and F-35 IMO.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Will China build both or have a fly-off?

I think China went with the same hi/lo idea the USAF did. F-22 is the air superiority fighter, F-35 is the ground attack fighter, except China will use this new fighter as the air superiority fighter and the J-20 as a fighter bomber.

The J-20 has always been pegged as inferior to the F-22, and more of a bigger fighter bomber. This is why they took a different path than trying to match the F-22, cause it was meant to be a F-35 contender.


User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21246 times:

So is this a real aircraft or a wooden mock up being paraded around the airfield as part of a disinformation campaign ?


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13777 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 4):
So is this a real aircraft or a wooden mock up being paraded around the airfield as part of a disinformation campaign ?

After the fact that the Chinese actually have the J-20... pretty good chance that it is real.

Flightglobal has picked up on this now.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-aircraft-emerges-in-china-376526/


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12685 times:

The 185 F22s will see a lot more opposition in a future fight over some coral reef.. Or maybe when Hawaii is deemed to be Chinese, all your islands are belong to us..

User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12192 times:

The double nose wheel seems very interesting to me... potential carrier capability? 20-30 of these jets somewhere in the pacific on a Chinese aircraft carrier could be somewhat of a concern!

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta is supposed to be in China next week... the J-20 had its maiden flight while former Defense Secretary Robert Gates was visiting China. Seems to be somewhat of a trend forming.

[Edited 2012-09-17 09:38:05]

User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10143 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 7):
The double nose wheel seems very interesting to me... potential carrier capability? 20-30 of these jets somewhere in the pacific on a Chinese aircraft carrier could be somewhat of a concern!

Of greater concern is the number of lower tech land based fighters China can field. We concentrate on high technology fighters, but they have a limited amount of ordinance they can carry. In an overwhelming attack on Taiwan they could swarm any nation fighting against them. I tried to find the old post on Information Dissemination but I couldn't find it. But, 100 advanced aircraft against 1000 low(er) tech aircraft would present a big problem.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 7):
Defense Secretary Leon Panetta is supposed to be in China next week... the J-20 had its maiden flight while former Defense Secretary Robert Gates was visiting China. Seems to be somewhat of a trend forming.

Isn't the Chinese problem engine technology? But, as you say, it isn't just a coincidence that they rolled this out right before Penetta's visit.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinecmb56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10024 times:

The American military should not make the same mistakes they have in the past when evaluating Soviet aircraft. The Russians designed their aircraft to do what they wanted not what Americans thought the Russians wanted it to do. For example the Mig 15 was designed to shoot down B-29s not dog fight F-86s. The Mig 25 was designed to shoot down supersonic bombers that ended up never being built. It was never intended to be an air superiority fighter. Don't underestimate what the Chinese want their aircraft to do, they know what their mission is we do not.

User currently offlinePIEAvantiP180 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9872 times:
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Good looking plane, wondering what capabilities it will have. So does anybody know what J-?? # will this be aircraft be assigned? Right now anybody in the Pacific should worry yet but should definitely be paying more attention to China. It will take another 10-15 years or so for them to catch up with the US with quality and to close the technology gap between them and the US. Plus in my opinion I do not see the Chinese doing anything dumb to derail their economy for the sake of fighting a war. Just like anybody else they will bark and rattle but cooler heads will prevail. Economics are the name of the game in todays world and I don't believe they will send their economy back a few decades to fight a costly war.

User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9648 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 10):
I do not see the Chinese doing anything dumb to derail their economy for the sake of fighting a war. Just like anybody else they will bark and rattle but cooler heads will prevail.

They are preparing the big stick to carry when they speak softly.
 



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 9512 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 8):
Of greater concern is the number of lower tech land based fighters China can field.

I remember reading an article interviewing some Chinese official and they stated they would field 200 fighters for every F-22... maybe a bit of a stretch but China's biggest strength right now is numbers, but throw in a silver bullet force to at least challenge the F-22 and F-35... a wave of J-10s and J-11s will sweep over what is left behind.

The J-20 fighter bomber escorted by these new air superiority fighters would make a lethal combination. They only have to make it to the target, once the damage is done, getting home would simply be a bonus for the Chinese.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9477 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 12):
The J-20 fighter bomber escorted by these new air superiority fighters would make a lethal combination.

They have a decent conversation over on ID going on about this. The difference is we really don't and probably never will know how good this plane is. When the US puts funds into a new aircraft it seems like every program setback makes the news or at least is reported. That doesn't happen in China. They could fail miserably and we'd never know. It could have terrible performance numbers and we'd be guessing how good it is.

I completely agree with your comment about power in numbers.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 10):

People suspect it should be J-31 because the number on the plane is 31001 while the no. of first J-20 is 20001.


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8010 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Will China build both or have a fly-off?

J-31 is designed by 601 design bureau (based at Shenyang) and J-20 is designed by 611 design bureau (based at Chengdu). There is always a competition between these two groups, such as J-10 (611) vs J-11 (601). I think it's a hi/lo thing but the competition will decide which one get more orders from PLAAF.


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 882 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7975 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 12):
I remember reading an article interviewing some Chinese official and they stated they would field 200 fighters for every F-22... maybe a bit of a stretch but China's biggest strength right now is numbers, but throw in a silver bullet force to at least challenge the F-22 and F-35... a wave of J-10s and J-11s will sweep over what is left behind.

The J-20 fighter bomber escorted by these new air superiority fighters would make a lethal combination. They only have to make it to the target, once the damage is done, getting home would simply be a bonus for the Chinese.

See, I just don't see this as being realistic. It comes across like Starcraft strategy frankly.

There are so many problems with concepts like this that seem to get swept under the rug when everyone trots out what amounts to a zerg rush strategy. Everyone seems to assume it will just work, as if you win if you have 10 planes alive out of 100 to bomb someone. Like you can take out their base and they will just quit the war. Let's look at this scenario a little more logically.

1. No one can really afford to throw away modern fighters in huge numbers and even China does not have them in that huge of numbers. Just looking at their fleet they have roughly 1,600 fighters in their total inventory. That is rough parity with the USAF in those categories (less all the heavy bombers and A-10's and everything else the USAF has to offer and not including the USN or USMC) The majority of these don't carry precision guided weapons really and depending on the range they are not going to lug a lot of bombs, precision or not, to targets very far at all from their borders. Unless they are using nukes you are going to need to get more than a handful through to the target and most importantly you are likely going to have to be able to come back again later (more on that later).

2. It is not actually all that easy to marshal hundreds of aircraft for a concentrated strike. Airbases have limits on how many aircraft they can arm and get airborne in a given time. There are only so many airbases within range of your targets. Aircraft can circle for only so long waiting for others to get airborne before they have to go lest they run out of fuel. All of this limits the absolute number of aircraft you can sortie in a situation.

More than that such activity gives advanced warning to the other side. Assets will be redeployed to deal with the obvious strike you are forming up. Strike missions will be scrubbed and F-35's can be put in the air with a full air to air load out (external too) if needed. Other assets will detect your marshaling activities. You won't be allowed to service and launch hundreds of planes in total peace. Your airbases will have cruise missiles (in the hundreds because the US has orders of magnitude more standoff weapons than other nations) and other standoff weapons striking at you. You can't assemble this massive strike quietly. The other side is not just going to wait for it to show up. Now this plays both ways (so spare me the IRBM talk here as it goes both ways) but that just re-enforces the advantage of high end planes. If I can be effective with a dozen airplanes it is a hell of a lot simpler to disperse and harden my aircraft than it is when I need 200 to form a strike package.

3. What is it going to do to your pilot moral to send them on just a mission or two where they suffer massive losses. Your bomb loaded aircraft are going to be relatively easy targets. Let's say we go after the Kadena AFB in Okinawa and you run up against just one squadron of F-22's and one of F-35's. Even on just internal loads that force is carrying 120 long-range missiles. Just how many bomb loaded aircraft do you expect to get through? If I strap external AMRAAM's onto my F-35's and use them as missile mule aircraft letting the F-22's do the targeting work I could in theory put far more missiles on the F-35. If I hang just one each hard point I have 10 missiles on the thing. If I see you preparing a major strike there is no reason I can't really start to make your life difficult by doing this. Are your pilots really going to keep pressing an attack when they are blowing up by the dozens? I don't buy it. They are going to ditch munitions and run for home. They have no idea how many defensive fighters they are running into after all.

4. The big advantage of fighters and bombers is they can strike today, be reloaded and strike again tomorrow. Expending them like missiles is just stupid. Precision weapons have tilted this a great deal to help the attacker but you are still unlikely to land a knockout blow in the scenario proffered unless they are using nukes. There is just no way to make the math add up that suffering a 10 to 1 loss ratio (which is what trying to just swarm F-22's and F-35's with older fighters would get you) results in you winning. What I lose today I don't have tomorrow. That means I can pull this stunt once or twice (assuming I can overcome the problems in points 2 and 3 to actually accomplish something) and then I am done.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7915 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 16):
It comes across like Starcraft strategy frankly.

Never played it.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 16):
amounts to a zerg rush strategy

Im guessing you have though.



The Chinese will not play the conventional war against an opponent as well armed as the US, they would be stupid to. Much the same as the US Militia broke 'traditional' military convention in the revolutionary war, or even Al Qaeda with terrorist bombings. If you are fighting a guy twice your size, you dont stand there and try to have a fair fight, you will lose. You get a bat and smash in his knee caps when he isnt looking.

The Soviets were scared shitless of the F-117 and B-2... aircraft that could just slip into the heart of the Soviet Union and blast anything virtually uncontested. Runways, factories, utilities, fuel depots and refineries... with key strengths wore down, it becomes a war of attrition.


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 882 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7903 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 17):
The Chinese will not play the conventional war against an opponent as well armed as the US, they would be stupid to. Much the same as the US Militia broke 'traditional' military convention in the revolutionary war, or even Al Qaeda with terrorist bombings. If you are fighting a guy twice your size, you dont stand there and try to have a fair fight, you will lose. You get a bat and smash in his knee caps when he isnt looking.

That sounds great in theory but again it works both ways. You posited that they would make use of their numbers in the air to gain a decisive advantage. You could go ahead and spell out how they are going to do that I suppose.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 7839 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):
You posited that they would make use of their numbers in the air to gain a decisive advantage.

If China has the ability to sneak in and take out key infrastructure on a first day attack (especially runways), what slips though can be dealt with using numbers. How many bases are F-22s and eventually F-35s going to be based at? How many anti-runway cluster bombs will it take to shred the runways at those bases?


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3560 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7783 times:
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Quoting Oroka (Reply 17):
The Chinese will not play the conventional war against an opponent as well armed as the US,


I think the Chinese are more concerned about protecting themselves from some democracy zealot from the US, than taking over the US or Canada


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 20):
than taking over the US or Canada

Nah, they are just going to buy the US and Canada, bit by bit.


User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7242 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 12):
I remember reading an article interviewing some Chinese official and they stated they would field 200 fighters for every F-22... maybe a bit of a stretch but China's biggest strength right now is numbers, but throw in a silver bullet force to at least challenge the F-22 and F-35... a wave of J-10s and J-11s will sweep over what is left behind.

The J-20 fighter bomber escorted by these new air superiority fighters would make a lethal combination. They only have to make it to the target, once the damage is done, getting home would simply be a bonus for the Chinese.

In theory thats a good plan but the US has already figured out how to counter stealth and it was done several years ago. The US doesn't build anything it doesn't know to counter.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7082 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 22):
The US doesn't build anything it doesn't know to counter.

And as they should! But dont under estimate dirty tricks being used in tandem with stealth. I wonder how a CA 747 would look on a radar screen (or any other sensor) with 4 J-20s and 2 J-31s tucked in under it, especially if it is not expected.


Yeah, I know, fanboy fantasy, but if I was employed by the military, it would be considered unconventional tactics.


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