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Iraq To Sign $5 Billion Arms Deal With Russia  
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6269 times:

In addition to their F-16 order, it appears the Iraqis are to splash out on some MiG-29s and Mi-28 attack helicopters:

Iraq intends to acquire Russian armament, including combat aircraft and helicopters to the amount of $5 billion, Vzglyad.ru reports with reference to Iraqi news agency Shafaq News. This information was confirmed by Russian sources.

According to mass-media, Iraqi prime-minister, Nouri al-Maliki, should visit Moscow in October and several large contracts on delivery of Russian armament and combat equipment to the amount of $5 billion should be signed. According to the Iraqi source, «military contracts will include deliveries of Sukhoi and MiG aircraft, Russian Mi helicopters and other vehicles», bmpd blog report.

The blog’s source from Russia confirms the information, noting that the first package of contracts with Rosoboronexport will have a total value of $4.3 billion.

According to the blog’s information, it is planned to sign a contract on delivery of МiG-29М/М2 fighters, armored vehicles, air defense systems (in particular, 42 Pantsir-S1 weapon systems), 30 combat Mi-28NE helicopters, at that Iraq will in fact become the Mi-28NE’s launch customer. Presumably, the first package will include Pantsir-S1 and Mi-28NE.


http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2012/9/27/1236/

It's interesting to see the MiG-29 getting orders. I believe Russia has recently received some new builds too.

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6051 times:

Dasvidanya, Uncle Sam! Thanks for the memories and the $$$ spent!!

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12063 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5969 times:

Hmmmm, it seems to me the Iraqi Mig-29 didn't work out so well against USAF/USN F-14s, F-15s, and F-16s in 1991. They also didn't do to well against Iranian F-4s, F-5s, and F-14s.

So why would they go back to a looser and second rate fighter, compared to any western fighter?

They should buy airplanes from the US, UK, France, Spain, Germany, etc.

BTW, Germany has some new, yet to be built A-400Ms for sale.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
Dasvidanya, Uncle Sam! Thanks for the memories and the $$$ spent!!

Although I'm with KC on the other aircraft that might be better suited, I don't think our involvement there should require them to exclusively purchase all their military equipment from the US.

I think they've bought aircraft from the US, Russia and several European countries already.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5803 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
So why would they go back to a looser and second rate fighter, compared to any western fighter?

I think that there is nothing wrong with the MIG - the problems in 1991 were more with the pilots. As we've seen many times, Arabs don't seem to make very good pilots for some reason. My grandfather, who was hired to train military pilots in Saudi Arabia in the late 40s, thought it was a cultural thing.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 3):
Although I'm with KC on the other aircraft that might be better suited, I don't think our involvement there should require them to exclusively purchase all their military equipment from the US.

I think they've bought aircraft from the US, Russia and several European countries already.

True, but how will that play with taxpayers back in Boise? Given the billions spent and the economic situation in the heartland, would they not expect an all- US procurement policy? Even oil fields are being leased over to CNOOC for development...


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5641 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
True, but how will that play with taxpayers back in Boise? Given the billions spent and the economic situation in the heartland, would they not expect an all- US procurement policy? Even oil fields are being leased over to CNOOC for development...

Why should Iraq buy from America, the average Hamid in the street didn't ask you to invade and f there country up, you lot aren't exactly flavour of the month in Iraq, I'm surprised that they have bought anything off you. Is it really a surprise that CNOOC have the lease, really, American didn't do Iraq any favours, they don't like you, get over it and give some more kit to Israel.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
Why should Iraq buy from America, the average Hamid in the street didn't ask you to invade and f there country up, you lot aren't exactly flavour of the month in Iraq, I'm surprised that they have bought anything off you. Is it really a surprise that CNOOC have the lease, really, American didn't do Iraq any favours, they don't like you, get over it and give some more kit to Israel.

You're really misinformed. For most Iraqi, they see the expulsion of Saddam and his sort of rule, followed by the examples of post-WWII Germany and Japan, the US military is now not only offering their military training to the Iraqi Army and Air Force, it's also selling some of their advanced military equipment like the F-16 and Abrams M-1 tanks.

If I were in charge of re-equipping the Iraqi military, I'd buy a mix of equipment between the US, Western Europe, and Russia, with a focus on best bang for the buck. So in that regard, I believe Russian exports would offer the best bang for the buck, followed by the US and Western Europe.

*MiG-29M/M2's are great bang for the buck, but fill same roles as F-16IQ in air defense role. Great mix, though.
*Su-30MKi's are solid against anything in the region, including US carrier-borne aircraft - surprised if not in deal. Foundation of new Iraqi Air Force.
*Su-34's for dedicated strike (got to have some dedicated strike if nonetheless for projection)
*EH-101 helos for medium lift, supplemented by H-60's; Mi-8's are bang for the buck, though.
*Mi-35's over Mi-28's hands down; would prefer Ka-50's over Mi-28's
*Leopard 2A7 tanks from Germany to compliment M1A1's

I'd then place a good order for Yak-130's so I could establish and maintain an indigenous corps of skilled pilots.
C-27J's for medium fixed wing transport, followed by C-130J's for larger transport/aerial refueling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Air_Force


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6679 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
You're really misinformed.

You need to speak to some real Iraqis not the tame ones they show on US t.v.


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5393 times:

Let's see if the Russians equip these new fighters with decent missiles. The US sold the F-16s to Iraq with AIM-7s, not AIM-120s.


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5349 times:

Iraq is simply playing the game that many Arab nations are now playing. They buy weapons from just about anyone that will sell them. It gives them the most political coverage. If everyone has billions in arms contracts with them then the US, Russians and Europe are likely to look the other way on things they want ignored.

User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):

A salute for an excellent, factual and informative post!   


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12041 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5259 times:
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Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
True, but how will that play with taxpayers back in Boise?

I'd guess they have no say in how Iraq spends its money.   

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Given the billions spent and the economic situation in the heartland, would they not expect an all- US procurement policy?

You mean the trillions of dollars spent on basically destroying the country's infrastructure. And for what? The average Iraqi was actually safer under Sadam and bombs weren't going off in down-town Baghdad every week.

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
Even oil fields are being leased over to CNOOC for development...

Wait, you mean the Iraqis have made a decision about their own oil? How dare they!  Wow!

You spread freedom and democracy, then you don't like the decisions the free democracy makes?



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12063 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5174 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
KiwiRob

Oh really?

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
You're really misinformed. For most Iraqi, they see the expulsion of Saddam and his sort of rule, followed by the examples of post-WWII Germany and Japan, the US military is now not only offering their military training to the Iraqi Army and Air Force, it's also selling some of their advanced military equipment like the F-16 and Abrams M-1 tanks.

Correct.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
You need to speak to some real Iraqis not the tame ones they show on US t.v.

I have, and they all say the same thing as those Iraqis on TV.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Quoting comorin (Reply 5):Given the billions spent and the economic situation in the heartland, would they not expect an all- US procurement policy?
You mean the trillions of dollars spent on basically destroying the country's infrastructure. And for what? The average Iraqi was actually safer under Sadam and bombs weren't going off in down-town Baghdad every week.

Tell that to the Kurds, more than 100,000 were murdered by Hussain in the Al-Anfal Campaign. Today, the Ba'ath party has been replaced by a Shites effectively run the government today and have pretty much shut out the Sunnis. The current sectarian and insurgent lead violence has nothing to do with the US Combat Forces, who left Iraq last December. All we have in Iraq today is about 4,000 US Military trainers at just two bases.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12041 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5097 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Tell that to the Kurds, more than 100,000 were murdered by Hussain in the Al-Anfal Campaign. Today, the Ba'ath party has been replaced by a Shites effectively run the government today and have pretty much shut out the Sunnis.

This is true of course, but doesn't change the fact that more Iraqis lived generally peacefully and safely under Sadam than do today after their "liberation".

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
The current sectarian and insurgent lead violence has nothing to do with the US Combat Forces, who left Iraq last December.

That's some disconnect there - by almost totally destroying Iraqi infrastructure and removing Sadam's army and police, the insurgents have no real opposition. Courtesy of US and allied troops.



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):

You need to speak to some real Iraqis not the tame ones they show on US t.v.

Don't confuse Iraq with Afghanistan, Iraq is for the most part a sovereign nation with a history of military unity. It all stems down from there, with a military capable of projecting of nonetheless, a capability to defend it's nation's sovereignty. The Iraqi military doesn't need an offensive force by any stretch of the imagination, but like it or not they are caught in a regional arms race where Saudi Arabia is spending vicariously and Iran will continue to be a threat for the near future.

Beginning with a strong Air Force and led by a modern main battle tank on the ground, Iraq needs to be able to project to Iran that their borders are not to be violated. I like the mix of some Russian military equipment, they have a great bang for the buck and should only accent the US F-16 and M-1 tanks given they set up a rigid training program, something that again, with the help of the US and other allied nations around the world, the Iraqi military will be the benefactor of for decades to come.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 9):
Let's see if the Russians equip these new fighters with decent missiles. The US sold the F-16s to Iraq with AIM-7s, not AIM-120s.

I agree, I read that spec sheet as was almost embarrassed that A) we in the US tried to pass them off, and B) that the Iraqi were not any more vocal offer those relatively worthless missiles when used by an F-16. Perhaps the biggest reason they may not have been offered AMRAAM's was because I don't believe Iran has anything greater than the old fashioned BVR missile, either.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):
This is true of course, but doesn't change the fact that more Iraqis lived generally peacefully and safely under Sadam than do today after their "liberation".

How do you measure what you say, where do you get your information? Sure, you may find a minority of Iraqi who share that opinion, but I would argue that is not the vast majority.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 14):

That's some disconnect there - by almost totally destroying Iraqi infrastructure and removing Sadam's army and police, the insurgents have no real opposition. Courtesy of US and allied troops.

The primary condition before US troops would leave was the formation of the Iraqi military and police force, and their ability to do their job. What you speak of sounds like Iraq maybe five, six, or seven years ago, but not now. Iraq has been pouring tons of concrete on the rebuilding of their infrastructure for five years plus now.


User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4433 times:
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A lot of qualified "Possible Pilot Candidates" have left Iraq. How many will return to fly all these combat aircraft?

I spent 18 months at Kirkuk Air Base as a contractor and interacted a lot with the civilian and USAF flight instructors and the things they told me about Iraqi pilot candidates would make your hair curl! Some of them could not even write their names! They even had to order a less complicated trainer due to the educational and skill level of the Iraqi pilot candidates. I saw several Iraqi C-130 pilots that looked to be in their 70's and 80's and flew like it! Ever see a C-130 bounce down the runway 5-6 times? You would there!

Not to mention the incredible corruption and ineptitude of the Iraqi Govt. Nouri al-Maliki can't wipe his ass without someone telling him how to do it! So those contract negotiations should be interesting!!!

With all that said, I mean no offense to the Iraqi Air Force and I do hope they can get their act together and protect their own country, I really do. Saddam kept the bulk of the Iraq population down and uneducated.

In time, they will prevail!

KiwiRob, you're partially correct my friend. I spent six years in Iraq and spent a lot of time with "regular" Iraqi's and while all of them hate the violence that followed our invasion, most, not all, were happy to see Saddam gone and everybody was absolutely thrilled when he finally hung!

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4384 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
I agree, I read that spec sheet as was almost embarrassed that A) we in the US tried to pass them off, and B) that the Iraqi were not any more vocal offer those relatively worthless missiles when used by an F-16. Perhaps the biggest reason they may not have been offered AMRAAM's was because I don't believe Iran has anything greater than the old fashioned BVR missile, either.

Disagree. Good pilots even when armed with the AIM-7 will still be a very formidable opponent. The 21st Fighter Squadron Gamblers for the longest time were only armed with AIM-7's and AIM-9M's and have trained against opponents armed with AIM-120's and AIM-9X's. Suffice it to say, they were still very dangerous opponents who gave bloody noses against fighters equipped with better weapons.


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