alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2690 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5033 times:
The fact that its located in a high population area like New York dosen't hurt either. Even NASA admitted that one of the key factors were locations where as many people as possible could see the shuttles. That's why as a result of that criteria Houston and Dayton lost....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
Well California was home to the plants which manufactured the orbiters and the SSME's and is home to Edwards, where nearly half of shuttle flights ended
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
NBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 604 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4786 times:
The LA area was once home to an aerospace industrial complex that rivaled the Silicon Valley's computer complex. All of the major manufacturers of aircraft and spacecraft had factories there: Hughes, Rockwell, Lockheed, Honeywell, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, etc. It is only reasonable that an area that contributed so much to the program would get a shuttle when it retired.
"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11742 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4580 times:
Quoting tugger (Reply 2): Well California was home to the plants which manufactured the orbiters
No, not quite. The FAL was at Palmdale, which is a USAF facility nearly all Californians cannot get into. The parts for the shuttles were manufactured in nearly every US state.
Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 3): All of the major manufacturers of aircraft and spacecraft had factories there: Hughes, Rockwell, Lockheed, Honeywell, McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, etc. It is only reasonable that an area that contributed so much to the program would get a shuttle when it retired.
Their all gone, except Boeing Long Beach, which will be closing in the next few years after the last C-17 is delivered.
California got a real shuttle, New York got the prototype purely for political reasons. Houston got a mock-up of a toy. Houston ran EVERY shuttle mission, none were run from California. In fact the once built west coast shuttle launch site at VBG was never used by a shuttle, except for the test fits by Enterprise. SLC-6 is only used to launch Delta IV.
Politics was the ONLY consideration in selecting the final homes for the shuttle fleet. The selections were made by the White House and not by NASA.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4667 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4555 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): No, not quite. The FAL was at Palmdale, which is a USAF facility nearly all Californians cannot get into. The parts for the shuttles were manufactured in nearly every US state.
Well I understand that. But Seattle (and now SC) is still where people consider Boeing's to to be built. California contributed a hell of a lot to the shuttle program and I see no need to diminish that.
I can see that you are upset at how things turned out but it doesn't change that "California" is deserving of getting a Space Shuttle. I was just pointing out why California was worthy of such and honor, not saying anywhere else was not.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 452 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4535 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): Politics was the ONLY consideration in selecting the final homes for the shuttle fleet. The selections were made by the White House and not by NASA.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 28 Reply 8, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4497 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 5): California contributed a hell of a lot to the shuttle program and I see no need to diminish that.
Califiornia contributed, and still contributes, a hell of a lot to TONS of aerospace programs, whether they are NASA, armed forces, private, whatever.
I've said it before, I'll say it again:
To be honest, I don't understand why people say SoCal shouldn't have one. Between the orbiters being built here and landing here on many missions, and TONS of aerospace industry here (which pumped a lot of parts and such into the program, I'm sure), it seems a fitting location.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): No, not quite. The FAL was at Palmdale, which is a USAF facility nearly all Californians cannot get into.
Which part are you saying "not quite" to? Palmdale is in SoCal. Of course components get manufactured elsewhere. Boeing doesn't put together every last component in Seattle, either.
Would you rather the Shuttle be at AF Plant 42, which, as you say, nearly all Californians cannot get into?
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): Their all gone, except Boeing Long Beach, which will be closing in the next few years after the last C-17 is delivered.
They may not all be factories, but Boeing, Northrop, Raytheon, Honeywell, SpaceX, Aerospace Corp., Lockheed, Gulfstream, the Air Force, the Navy, the Marines, NASA, and hundreds of other companies still have a large presence in SoCal.
Just because SoCal isn't a focus of final assembly anymore doesn't mean it doesn't have a large aerospace sector.
Quoting alberchico (Reply 1): That's why as a result of that criteria Houston and Dayton lost....
You know Houston is the 4th most populous city in the country, right? And the focus of the 5th most populous metro area?
I really can't see NYC getting a Shuttle over Houston.
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
NBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 604 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4433 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): Their all gone, except Boeing Long Beach, which will be closing in the next few years after the last C-17 is delivered.
Yup, I still remember having Boy Scout meetings at the Rockwell plant in Downey, with a full shuttle mockup inside.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Califiornia contributed, and still contributes, a hell of a lot to TONS of aerospace programs, whether they are NASA, armed forces, private, whatever.
This is true, but it is only a shell of its former self. Although Boeing Space (formerly MDC Space) still has its main building in Huntington Beach, just off the Seal Beach Navy Base.
"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11742 posts, RR: 51 Reply 10, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4405 times:
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 7): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):Politics was the ONLY consideration in selecting the final homes for the shuttle fleet. The selections were made by the White House and not by NASA.
Prove it.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 8): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):Their all gone, except Boeing Long Beach, which will be closing in the next few years after the last C-17 is delivered.
They may not all be factories, but Boeing, Northrop, Raytheon, Honeywell, SpaceX, Aerospace Corp., Lockheed, Gulfstream, the Air Force, the Navy, the Marines, NASA, and hundreds of other companies still have a large presence in SoCal.
Just because SoCal isn't a focus of final assembly anymore doesn't mean it doesn't have a large aerospace sector.
Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 9): This is true, but it is only a shell of its former self.
Yeap, In the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s SoCal was pounding out hundreds of DC-8s, DC-9s, DC-10s, and L-1011s, along with many other airplanes and space vehicles. SoCal has been loosing its aerospace industry since the 1990s due to the unfriendly tax on businesses to states like Washington, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and others. The same can be said for New York State, which once had a large and proud aerospace industry, too. Engineers have left California by the hundreds of thousands in the last 20 + years. No state, except maybe Florida, has a longer and more proud tradition in space than Texas. Yes, SoCal did have a large space and flight testing program, mostly at EDW and NID which are in SoCal because of the high desert and weather, and for no other reason. PMD started out as a USAAF Field training B-25 crews during WWII, It later was opened for commerical operations by several aerospace companies for FAL of many projects there for civilian, military, and space programs. The L-1011 was built there, as was the SR-71, F-117, and currently the Global Hawk.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 28 Reply 11, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4381 times:
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Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 9):
This is true, but it is only a shell of its former self.
A shell of it's former self still equals a larger aerospace industry than probably every other city in the US....probably some states, too.
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
JeffSFO From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 820 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4336 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): Politics was the ONLY consideration in selecting the final homes for the shuttle fleet. The selections were made by the White House and not by NASA.
The irony is rich there. Why are NASA operations in Houston at all and not just Florida? Politics. Specifically because of LBJ. Where did I learn that? Well, aside from history, it was publicly stated by the tour guide who led our group at KSC. So to kvetch about Houston not getting a Shuttle is just sour grapes.
That said, huge amounts of development for the Space Shuttle program were done in southern California. Don't take my word for it, for a great in-depth set of lectures by those who designed, built, managed, and also flew the Shuttle, I recommend this series of lectures from MIT:
Quote:
Course Highlights
This course was administrated by shuttle astronaut and MIT Professor Jeff Hoffman and Professor Aaron Cohen, who was the Space Shuttle Orbiter Project Manager. Guest speakers provide the majority of the content in video lectures, discussing topics such as system design, accident investigation, and the future of NASA's space mission.
Course Description
16.885J offers a holistic view of the aircraft as a system, covering: basic systems engineering; cost and weight estimation; basic aircraft performance; safety and reliability; lifecycle topics; aircraft subsystems; risk analysis and management; and system realization. Small student teams retrospectively analyze an existing aircraft covering: key design drivers and decisions; aircraft attributes and subsystems; and operational experience. Oral and written versions of the case study are delivered. For the Fall 2005 term, the class focuses on a systems engineering analysis of the Space Shuttle. It offers study of both design and operations of the shuttle, with frequent lectures by outside experts. Students choose specific shuttle systems for detailed analysis and develop new subsystem designs using state of the art technology.
Canon 5D Mark II, 5D + EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS + EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L II + Tamron AF28-75mm f/2.8
Areopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4321 times:
I think the above arguments for Florida, Houston, LA, and the Smithsonian are very strong. The real issue is, why should one be posted in NYC, less than 250 miles away from the Smithsonian, when the country is so big? Houston would help to bring a much bigger swath of the US within driving range of a shuttle. Putting one in New York doesn't make any sense.
nickh From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 101 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4199 times:
I live in Houston, TX, and I did some work out at KSC on STS-67/Endeavour back in the mid 1990s (comm/up-downlink), so it was a personal thing for me when Endeavour did a fly-by on the Shuttle Transporter 747 -- near my office, several days ago, and landed at Ellington Field in Clear Lake (Houston) for a refueling, show & tell.
I saw the fly-by through my office window. I tried to run outside to catch the tail-end, but it was too late.
So WHY did Mission Control/JSC in Houston *not* get a shuttle? Incompetent politicians. Simple as that.
Almost makes you want to not vote any more - it only encourages the b*stards.
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10358 posts, RR: 40 Reply 17, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4127 times:
I would so much love to see this... a Space Shuttle parading through city streets!
What an awesome sight this must be!!!
The Space Shuttle Endeavour began its first-ever parade through city streets late Thursday, and anyone in the Los Angeles area can get a front-row seat.
The retired craft is on its way to a Los Angeles museum where it will spend its retirement.
Endeavour, which made its last trip to space in May 2011, is soon set to join the ranks of museum displays at the California Science Center (CSC).
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 28 Reply 18, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4112 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17): I hope this most unusual Space Shuttle road trip will be turned into a giant party!
Why New York and not Houston? Because tourists flock to New York. What else is in Houston that anyone would want to see? The tallest building that's not in a downtown area? Wow, I'M impressed! They're just pissed that we pronounce our street Howston, not Youston.
The early bird gets the worm, BUT...the second mouse gets the cheese!
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11742 posts, RR: 51 Reply 20, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3980 times:
Quoting JeffSFO (Reply 13): Why are NASA operations in Houston at all and not just Florida? Politics. Specifically because of LBJ. Where did I learn that? Well, aside from history, it was publicly stated by the tour guide who led our group at KSC.
That is correct. Then President Kennedy put (then) VP Johnson in charge of the flrdling space program.
Quoting nickh (Reply 16): So WHY did Mission Control/JSC in Houston *not* get a shuttle? Incompetent politicians. Simple as that.
Correct.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 17): I hope this most unusual Space Shuttle road trip will be turned into a giant party!
Yeah they can create bon fires from all the trees that had to be cut down along the route. LOL
The fact is the CSC is a small museum when it comes to their air and space exhibits, compared to the space museum at Houston and the USAF museum at Dayton. They only have 6 airplanes or airplane replices and 5 space exhibits, including the Apollo 16 space suit from a moon mission.
eksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1154 posts, RR: 27 Reply 22, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3975 times:
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You guys do know that that the OV-101 is merely a prototype that is far removed from the orbiters that actually flew in space?
101 was deemed to too structurally different to be economical fitted as an space worthy orbiter very early on (hence Challenger was born). Again, after the Challenger incident, 101 was passed up for Endeavour's creation.
There is also nothing really inside her when one compares with the real thing. She is pretty bare inside for example her flight deck just a frame with everything that was used in the approach and landing tests removed. Big empty holes fill the flight deck where things would have been. She lacks many of the subsystems and components that one would expect to be inside. i.e. the shape and her history in the ALT testing and fit testing is what one is looking at. Hey payload bay is no different.
Just thought i would put it in there as people equate her with the space worthy fleet by merely looking at the outside shape.
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10358 posts, RR: 40 Reply 23, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3954 times:
Quoting eksath (Reply 22): She is pretty bare inside for example her flight deck just a frame with everything that was used in the approach and landing tests removed. Big empty holes fill the flight deck where things would have been. She lacks many of the subsystems and components that one would expect to be inside. i.e. the shape and her history in the ALT testing and fit testing is what one is looking at. Hey payload bay is no different.
About the same as Concorde G-BOAB at Heathrow, an almost empty shell with piles of British Airways magazines stacked up inside her, yet still as beautiful looking as the first day, as if she was ready to taxi and align on the runway for flight.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 452 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3934 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20): Quoting nickh (Reply 16):
So WHY did Mission Control/JSC in Houston *not* get a shuttle? Incompetent politicians. Simple as that.
Correct.
You could name names. Who do you have in mind? Mayor of Houston? The Texas delegation in Congress? Who simply assumed they'd get one and sat on their hands?
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 28 Reply 25, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3978 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20): The fact is the CSC is a small museum when it comes to their air and space exhibits, compared to the space museum at Houston and the USAF museum at Dayton. They only have 6 airplanes or airplane replices and 5 space exhibits, including the Apollo 16 space suit from a moon mission.
The fact is that this small museum's air and space exhibit is growing.
You know, cause they just got a Space Shuttle.
That's what museums do......
Quoting eksath (Reply 22): Just thought i would put it in there as people equate her with the space worthy fleet by merely looking at the outside shape.
Was still used for approach testing and such. Still better than a plywood replica.
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
SSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 452 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3698 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 28): That makes absolutely no sense. You haven't read the rest of the posts, I take it.
It was a joke making light of the abject seriousness which ya'll take the arguments about which place was more entitled to which shuttle. I don't generally use the very "whinge" except sarcastically.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 28 Reply 30, posted (8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3603 times:
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Quoting SSTeve (Reply 29): It was a joke making light of the abject seriousness which ya'll take the arguments about which place was more entitled to which shuttle. I don't generally use the very "whinge" except sarcastically.
Guilty as charged, I suppose. My bad.
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10358 posts, RR: 40 Reply 31, posted (8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 3577 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 25): The fact is that this small museum's air and space exhibit is growing.
You know, cause they just got a Space Shuttle.
That's what museums do......
I just hope they will be able to raise enough money so they can provide Space Shuttle Endeavour proper 'maintenance'. through the years. Also it seems that the museum will have to pay for replanting the trees that had to be taken down and probably more of the LAX to Museum site voyage expanses.
I suppose this museum is living off private funds only or do they get money from the State of California at all? They probably will charge an admission fee for visitors and not rely on donations only, like the Udvar Hazy at Dulles Airport.
I hope what is now the "California Space Shuttle" will attract a lot of visitors. Not sure if the visit is feasible between flights like at Dulles Airport.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 360 posts, RR: 2 Reply 32, posted (8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3381 times:
Quoting Areopagus (Reply 14): I think the above arguments for Florida, Houston, LA, and the Smithsonian are very strong. The real issue is, why should one be posted in NYC, less than 250 miles away from the Smithsonian, when the country is so big? Houston would help to bring a much bigger swath of the US within driving range of a shuttle. Putting one in New York doesn't make any sense.
Defnately, NY has other things to "have" and with the Udvar-Hazy being that close... there was no need for NYC. No offense to any New Yorkers, just that the middle of the country doesn't have one at all and you have 2 in such a short distance.
seachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 216 posts, RR: 9 Reply 33, posted (8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3334 times:
I get the sentimental reasons people feel slighted but looks like they pretty much followed the tourists. According to the Forbes list of most visited cities in 2010:
1. Orlando
2. NYC
3. Chicago
4. Anaheim/Orange County
Chicago might be only one with room to complain or was their bid lacking?
CplKlinger From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 145 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3199 times:
As much as I might be tempted to complain that Dayton didn't get one (as I'm about an hour and 20 mins away), they got something just as exciting to me in the cabin crew trainer. The designs for the exhibit they are building (see http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123317030 ) look much more exciting to me that just getting to see a shuttle that went into space. Getting to view the inside of the trainer that many astronauts used to train for missions makes me happy. That, and an SR-71, XB-70, X-15 and all the other insane things they have. I can't wait for (and have donated what little I could) their upcoming expansion which will allow this rarer pieces they have (X-15, Air Force One, XB-70) to come back to the main museum.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8326 posts, RR: 28 Reply 38, posted (8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3049 times:
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Quoting seachaz (Reply 37): That's a good point - will you be able to do more then merely view the exterior of Discovery/Atlantis/Endeavor at their respective locations?
Don't know, but this is all I saw of Endeavour on my way to the USC game today, and I was really freaking excited about seeing that little sliver!
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
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From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10358 posts, 
They're just pissed that we pronounce our street Howston, not Youston.
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