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Who Has The Best Radar Systems?  
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 12264 times:

I've been hearing rumors (or at least I think they're rumors) that Russian radar and even some Russian aircraft are better than their American "counterparts."

Let's consider this article about a flyover by Russian aircraft over the USS Kitty Hawk:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1060761.stm

Russian officials had earlier claimed that the carrier was taken by surprise and that the pictures captured the panic on deck as the aircraft flew over.

But Navy spokesman Rear Admiral Steve Pietropaoli denied that the Kitty Hawk was surprised. He said that the aircraft had been tracked by radar almost from take-off.



I've also heard rumors that the F-22 Raptor could be detected by Russian-built radars.

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 12172 times:

"I've been hearing rumors (or at least I think they're rumors) that Russian radar and even some Russian aircraft are better than their American "counterparts."

Let's consider this article about a flyover by Russian aircraft over the USS Kitty Hawk:"

I think the kill ratio of Western built aircraft against Russian/ Soviet built aircraft over the past 35 years speaks for itself.

And lets consider the incident of the German youth and his Cessna that he flew right into Red Square during the height of the Cold War, he was flying in 'secure" Soviet Air Space for hours. He flew over Military installations, missile sites, and right down into Red Square.

The investigation revelaed the Soviet Air Defense operators were drunk off their asses.

I think that incident which took place in 1985 was alot more serious than a Soviet Aircraft over flying a US Ship in International Waters during a time when the Ship was not conducting flight ops.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 12171 times:

I am sure this very article has been discussed on here before but I can't find it.

Kill ratios over the last 35 years are not a reflection of the quality of the planes involved. Too many other factors are involved to make such a claim.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12126 times:

"The investigation revelaed the Soviet Air Defense operators were drunk off their asses"

An "investigation" conducted by Jay Leno, maybe.

When it comes to air defense radars (particularly those found in SAM and guided AAA systems), Russia is pretty much on the same level (some would say higher) as anyone in the world, that includes the US. The radars found in such advanced interceptors as the Su-37 are also considered to be of very high quality as compared to any 4th generation fighter out there. However, they are almost certainly not as advanced as the F-22's APG-77, and likely to have defficiencies as compared to western gen 4+ fighters.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3376 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12138 times:

I think the kill ratio of Western built aircraft against Russian/ Soviet built aircraft over the past 35 years speaks for itself.

Actually (and I may get flamed for this), I do not think it says a lot at all. Most of the recent conflicts were uneven. There were a lot more allied planes in almost every conflict then the enemy had. Gulf war 1 and 2, Kosovo and Afghanistan are a few examples. A fight between equal numbers would truly show how good a fighter is.

The only war I can think of that was "fair/unfair to western fighters" was probably the Yom Kippoer war? The one were the Israeli Air Force came very close to the brink.

A lot also depends on training. Just think of Vietnam. Before "Top Gun" was opened the kill ratio was in favour of the MiG. After "Top Gun" was introduced the kill ratio shifted to the advantage of the F-4.

I think a 1-on-1 battle between (groups of) Flankers/Fulcrums and Eagles/Falcons/Hornets would be an eye-opener, at the very least it would be interesting.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12120 times:

A lot also depends on training. Just think of Vietnam. Before "Top Gun" was opened the kill ratio was in favour of the MiG. After "Top Gun" was introduced the kill ratio shifted to the advantage of the F-4.

I think that the F-22 Raptor and the JSF (F-35) will probably be the last "manned" fighters to be developed. After that, most fighters will probably be remote-controlled/unmanned.


BTW, just as a precaution, anything that contains "advanced technology", should have some kind of self-destruct mechanism that would prevent the enemy from stealing the technology. But that's just my opinion.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12127 times:

The only time I can think of when western and eastern aircraft came together in a reasonably fair battle would be in 1970 or '71 in Egypt. The Soviets were getting annoyed with Egyptian failures, so they kept sending more and more of their own equipment and personnel to the area. Eventually, they sent over a bunch of MiG-21's along with their pilots. On at least one occasion they came in contact with a group of IDF/AF F-4E's and Mirage III's. A couple Fishbeds were lost. Both sides were on equal terms, as both had similar command and control capabilities (including a brand spanking new Soviet radar later borrowed by an Israeli CH-53 from the middle of the Egyptian desert), used modern equipment, had well trained pilots and support personnel, and no force multipliers were involved.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12116 times:

"A fight between equal numbers would truly show how good a fighter is."

Libya in the 1980s sent a bunch of Mig 25s to "ambush" a flight of F-14s from the Aircraft Carrier Coral Sea, I forget the number but the US fighters were greatly outnumbered ,there were no US loses and all the Libyan Mig 25s were "splashed".



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12090 times:

I was reasonably sure that those 1980s Lybian MiG shoot downs involved -23s, not -25s. There were two incidents, the last one resulting in the loss of 2 MiGs. No U.S. airccraft were damaged.

T.J.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12078 times:

I was under the impression that there was never a positive kill ration for MIG in Vietnam in Korea.

My understanding was that the ration was a 3:1 in the US favor when Top Gun was formed and then went up to somehting like 11:1 after the school started.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12032 times:

There never was a positive kill ratio for the NVA indeed. The best they could get was one downed US aircraft for every 3-4 of their own.
The illusion of a positive kill ration for the communists can only be achieved by counting ALL US and South Vietnamese losses against all NVA losses (so including the far larger number of US/South Vietnamese losses due to ground fire).

As to Kitty Hawk being "surprised". I highly doubt that.
Her air defense network would have detected the Soviet/Russian aircraft 100nm away or more (depending on the systems in operation). If the people on deck were surprised it was because they weren't warned about it coming in AND because any overflight of a military ship by aircraft from another nation without prior permission is a terrible breach of the protocol used between aircraft and ships on the high sees and therefore unexpected.

I've also heard rumors that the F-22 Raptor could be detected by Russian-built radars.
ANY aircraft can be detected, the F-22 included. Just get close enough to the radar and it will get a return.
Question is, how close does it need to get for the radar to see it? If the F-22 can get close enough to kill the radar before the operator can call in reinforcements or use his own defenses that's enough for the F-22 to complete its mission.
Likewise with the B-2. With the bombbay doors open it can be detected from directly underneath. But when it has the doors open when it's directly overhead of you you're likely to get a 2000 pound bomb on your head in a few seconds so you have other things on your mind than taking potshots at it.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 10 hours ago) and read 11990 times:

Likewise, kick up the energy being put out by a radar and eventually it will "burn" through whatever static is out there.

That was the theory behind the Mig-25 radar. Just put out as much RF as possible.

Unfortunatly this also makes you a great target for a RF homing missle, such as HARM or ALARM.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 6 hours ago) and read 11948 times:

Has an RF homing missile ever scored an air to air kill? The Standard doesn't count, since it was originally a shipboard SAM, and anyway, all kils by it didn't originate from the air. I'm talking ALARM, Shrike, HARM.... Wasn't there an RF homing version of the Sparrow planned at some point too?

T.J.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 5 hours ago) and read 11963 times:

Actually a Radar version of the sparrow was used in Nam. If memory serves it was called the shrike.

I do belive the russians or the chines where working on long range radar homing sams for use against US AWAC aircraft.

So there is work in this area going on.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11921 times:

There are or were RF homing versions of several AAMs.
Shrike is one, there's also one based on the AIM-9 Sidewinder (though that's mainly designed for use against ground targets by helicopters), and one based on the AIM-54 Phoenix (mainly designed for use against AEW aircraft but would be effective against a MiG-25 at speed).

The USSR also used to have several. They were masters at adopting missiles for different seeker heads, even fielding an IR guided missile with 100km range.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11851 times:

What about JORN? Can anyone comment on it?


"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
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