RIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 773 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7762 times:
I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before. Don't the Chinese use a red star in the middle with two red bars on each side, or is this a Navy version?
BladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 386 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7713 times:
Quoting RIXrat (Reply 2): I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before. Don't the Chinese use a red star in the middle with two red bars on each side, or is this a Navy version?
Those are test markings, usually for cameras so they know what to aim at.
alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2684 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 7429 times:
This is what the aircraft will look like when in service:
BTW Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ? To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 7, posted (5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7401 times:
Quoting alberchico (Reply 6): Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ?
Well, the program is almost 40 years along its development track.
Also remember that China has acquired three other aircraft carriers - to study even though some eventually were converted for other roles. They have also spend a lot of money buying and studying aircraft designs from other nations.
This carrier and program are a continuation of the development work done by the Soviets. The basic hull and design are the Soviet carrier Varyag - refurbished, completed and updated.
We will see their first locally 'designed' carrier no sooner than 2015.
What we are seeing now is the implementation of decades of work. And they are not at the end of the program.
Quoting alberchico (Reply 6): To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...
While we know some of the numbers about the India program, we don't know the numbers about the China program.
I would believe that China has thrown more money at the problem than India.
But China's system would make the total amount of money to be used more efficiently in my opinion.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1416 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7198 times:
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7): This carrier and program are a continuation of the development work done by the Soviets.
Considering how the Chinese seem to be aiming at copying the american style CVBG's and the fact that the Soviets used a completely different doctrine and employment for their "carriers", that seems unlikely.
The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 9, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7071 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 8): The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.
Well that, and both are in various target identification databases maintained by the USAF and USN.
moo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3596 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6786 times:
Quoting RIXrat (Reply 2): I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before.
Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 3): Those are test markings, usually for cameras so they know what to aim at.
They are indeed test markings, but they are there to provide a known contrast and focusing point on the aircraft for the cameras, not just for something to aim at
Take a look at the F-35 JDAM test drop photo below and you can see similar markings all over the place for the same reason.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6765 times:
Quoting alberchico (Reply 6): BTW Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ? To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...
Actually I was thinking I was quite surprised it had all taken this long since I have been hearing about it being imminent since the mid 1990's in some fashion. It will be really interesting to see how quickly they progress to an actual combat capability from here. In a lot of respects what they have done so far is the easy part. There is a lot yet to learn as you start having weapons around and attempting high tempo operations on a crowded deck with worn out crew members.
I also think STOBAR is a complete waste of time as a concept. It gains you none of the advantages of either CATOBAR or STOVL ships. There will be more learning to be done (more than they have to this point in my view) to go from a show pony to an operationally useful combat unit.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2467 posts, RR: 21 Reply 12, posted (5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6630 times:
A side note, it was reported the that head of the aircraft company that built the plane died of heart attack during these tests. If I can find the article, I'll post the link.
fsnuffer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6464 times:
Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult? As an armchair admiral, I would guess it limits the aircraft weights/payload that can be shot off the front of the carrier.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6454 times:
Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 13): Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult? As an armchair admiral, I would guess it limits the aircraft weights/payload that can be shot off the front of the carrier.
The biggest problem is that it really only works for high thrust aircraft. You can make it work for fighters. You can use it to drastically improve the take off performance of VSTOL aircraft. What you generally can't do is make it get say an E-2 airborne. I doubt one could ever ramp launch an A-6 or an S-3 either. The biggest downside of this (other than not taking E-2/C-2 type aircraft which you might be able to replace with a V-22 type though I have my doubts) will be in the field of launching long endurance UAV's from your carriers. UAV's get their endurance generally by having large wing area and pretty low power to weight ratios. Most have pretty long and thin wings. They are just not suited for that kind of operation. That is a big benefit to EMALS for the USN is that it can smoothly accelerate more fragile drones allowing them to have lighter structures and experience less stress.
The load limit question is far more complicated and the best answer one can give is that it depends on the aircraft, deck length and jump angle.
mffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 908 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6420 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 8): Considering how the Chinese seem to be aiming at copying the american style CVBG's and the fact that the Soviets used a completely different doctrine and employment for their "carriers", that seems unlikely.
The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.
Lets hope they did a better job on the carrier then with their Submarine's? If that is a model of how they improve on Russian tech... Then nobody needs to worry about the Chinese for the next couple of decades.
I remember speaking with a U.S. Navy sonar guy several years ago... He said the newest Chinese boomer sounded like a garbage truck dragging strings of cans (might as well have put a "Just Married" sign on the back of it!).
BarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2050 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6307 times:
Quoting alberchico (Reply 6): To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...
There's more happening behind the scenes on the Vikramaditya deal that is not publicly stated; the cash transfers also serve as means to pay for the technology transfer and design support from the Russians on the SSBN program, whose collaborative effort is not publicly disclosed as a matter of official policy. Further, keep in mind that a second carrier is being built locally, and has floated out. A third carrier has been more or less finalized, with construction soon to begin.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6205 times:
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16): There's more happening behind the scenes on the Vikramaditya deal that is not publicly stated
I've heard lots of stories about this project from Russian friends, it's hundreds of millions over budget mainly because it's making the yard directors and owners very rich.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 19, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6113 times:
The PLAN CV has about the same displacement of the RN's new CVFs. However Liaoning is about 74' longer and slightly (about 3') shorter on her extreme waterline beam. But the Queen Elizabeth class CVFs carry more aircraft.
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5630 times:
Quoting mffoda (Reply 1): I like the 2nd pic with the movie theater barricades. Tickets please!
And the last pic is very Top Gun... Why are there 2 guys pointing?? What if one them points the other direction?
You know what they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery. Looking at pictures and watching video of operation on the Liaoning it is obvious that the Chinese Navy has been studying USN carrier ops. Probably on YouTube. Yellow shirts directing, green shirts running out to the plane after it has landed, final checkers although they should be wearing black and white checkerboard float coats.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 788 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5375 times:
Quoting LMP737 (Reply 20): You know what they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery.
Its not imitating... it is looking around at what works, and adapting it to their use. Why reinvent what someone already perfected?
The Chinese never had a real concept of 'intellectual property', not cause they 'steal' other peoples 'ideas'... their society never had the concept of owning and idea.
And who is to say that their own domestically built and designed carriers are not going to be 'inspired' by current USN carriers? The Liaoning is just practice for the new ships which will operate like a Nimitz.
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1278 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5333 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 21): The Chinese never had a real concept of 'intellectual property', not cause they 'steal' other peoples 'ideas'... their society never had the concept of owning and idea.
Imitation is a virtue in Chinese society. Chinese pupils strive to imitate their teachers. If something is seen as superior, it is copied quickly. Since very long times, the Chinese were very willing to copy foreign ship designs, learn from foreign craftsmen and builders.
If there is something that hasn't been copied, it's the philosophy. They never forgot confucianism in favor of any other world view. Perhaps this is the backbone that has allowed all the technological advances, a steadfastness in their mindset.
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5246 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 21): Its not imitating... it is looking around at what works, and adapting it to their use. Why reinvent what someone already perfected?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5116 times:
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7): They have also spend a lot of money buying and studying aircraft designs from other nations.
And stealing them as well.
25 Oroka: Well, they were not going to openly share those designs. Still cheaper to steal the info than spend countless billion dollars making it work.
26 moo: No points are awarded for originality, just the end product. And China is certainly not the only country engaged in spying...
27 Acheron: It's all relative. The soviets decided against the steam catapults for the same reason they don't cover their decks with nonskid materials: the weath
28 SSTeve: While the US has a great history of military innovation, things would look totally different if we weren't up to some forthright stealing and imitati
29 Geezer: I only have two comments; the guy who took those photos was a pretty damned good photographer ! And.......... I never expected to see a Mig 29 with fo
31 garnetpalmetto: Su-33, Geezer, but the point still stands
32 Geezer: Oh wow........I stand corrected ! (Thanks GP) (but I'm still trying to figure out how to tell a Su-33 from a Su-27 ? (They all tend to look alike to
33 garnetpalmetto: Su-33s are outfitted for carrier ops, so folding wings would be your first, best indicator. The wing's also longer on it than a standard Flanker, it
34 Acheron: You'd think the canards would be the most obvious giveaway
35 garnetpalmetto: Doh! Good call - forgot to highlight those too!
36 Geezer: So the Su-33 is just the "navalized" version of the Su-27......with an arresting hook, beefed up structure, folding wings, and canards ? Thanks GP an
37 MD11Engineer: The carrier is defintely a game changer in contested waters like the South China Sea and worries the navies of the smaller countries, which often have
38 garnetpalmetto: Pretty much. To be accurate, the aircraft pictured is actually a Shenyang J-15 (ie a Chinese copy of the Su-33). But yes, the Russians do have foldin
39 MD11Engineer: Here is some more information about China´s territorial claims: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JS4VZbCWj8 and (From Pravda http://english.pravda.ru/
40 Aar90: Not sure what your point in the above is. E-2C can "deck launch" (non-catapult) from current CVN angle decks. It is just much safer for all concerned
41 justinlee: It's true. Actually the turboprop can take off with engine off, considering the wind over deck .The Chinese vision E-2, JZY-1, is ready to test on CV
42 StudeDave: During my 20 years in the NAVY- I never heard of that rate- what does an 'NW' do? Maybe it's an old one- you did mention the Forrestal... But she was
43 LMP737: True enough. The angled deck, steam catapult and the optical landing system all British inventions.. Although I think the USN borrowed them. Someone
44 BigJKU: There is a huge difference between can and should. As you say with enough deck you can get something like that airborne. The question is with what am
45 justinlee: For experiments, that's fine. Remember the chinese government still calls Liaoning an Experimental Platform.
46 Aar90: Not sure who you are citing, but I was manning up a MTOW E-2C (52,500#) for a deck launch when the injured person I was to carry off to a hospital...
47 Acheron: Yeah, and we all remember how the Varyag was only going to be a floating casino when it was purchased...
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Yellow shirts directing, green shirts running out to the plane after it has landed, final checkers although they should be wearing black and white checkerboard float coats.
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