Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning  
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11179 times:

First Landing and Takeoff from PLAN CV-16 Liaoning.















47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 11149 times:

I like the 2nd pic with the movie theater barricades. Tickets please!  



And the last pic is very Top Gun... Why are there 2 guys pointing?? What if one them points the other direction?  Wow!



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11137 times:

I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before. Don't the Chinese use a red star in the middle with two red bars on each side, or is this a Navy version?

User currently offlineBladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 11088 times:

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 2):
I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before. Don't the Chinese use a red star in the middle with two red bars on each side, or is this a Navy version?

Those are test markings, usually for cameras so they know what to aim at.


User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 11009 times:

BladeLWS -- thanks for clearing that up. I was really scratching my head on that one.

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10891 times:

I realize that is a test bird - but that is the ugliest color I've ever seen on an aircraft.

User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10804 times:

This is what the aircraft will look like when in service:

BTW Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ? To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XlCnvtCSpNo/UGaSNYQO2MI/AAAAAAAARko/rfnEK63JmIc/s1600/j15_04.jpg



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 days ago) and read 10776 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ?

Well, the program is almost 40 years along its development track.

Also remember that China has acquired three other aircraft carriers - to study even though some eventually were converted for other roles. They have also spend a lot of money buying and studying aircraft designs from other nations.

This carrier and program are a continuation of the development work done by the Soviets. The basic hull and design are the Soviet carrier Varyag - refurbished, completed and updated.

We will see their first locally 'designed' carrier no sooner than 2015.

What we are seeing now is the implementation of decades of work. And they are not at the end of the program.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

While we know some of the numbers about the India program, we don't know the numbers about the China program.

I would believe that China has thrown more money at the problem than India.

But China's system would make the total amount of money to be used more efficiently in my opinion.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1698 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10573 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
This carrier and program are a continuation of the development work done by the Soviets.

Considering how the Chinese seem to be aiming at copying the american style CVBG's and the fact that the Soviets used a completely different doctrine and employment for their "carriers", that seems unlikely.

The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10446 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.

Well that, and both are in various target identification databases maintained by the USAF and USN.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10161 times:

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 2):
I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before.
Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 3):
Those are test markings, usually for cameras so they know what to aim at.

They are indeed test markings, but they are there to provide a known contrast and focusing point on the aircraft for the cameras, not just for something to aim at  

Take a look at the F-35 JDAM test drop photo below and you can see similar markings all over the place for the same reason.

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50813a5169bedd157d000000-940-705/f-35a-2k-jdam.jpg


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10140 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
BTW Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ? To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

Actually I was thinking I was quite surprised it had all taken this long since I have been hearing about it being imminent since the mid 1990's in some fashion. It will be really interesting to see how quickly they progress to an actual combat capability from here. In a lot of respects what they have done so far is the easy part. There is a lot yet to learn as you start having weapons around and attempting high tempo operations on a crowded deck with worn out crew members.

I also think STOBAR is a complete waste of time as a concept. It gains you none of the advantages of either CATOBAR or STOVL ships. There will be more learning to be done (more than they have to this point in my view) to go from a show pony to an operationally useful combat unit.


User currently onlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (2 years 23 hours ago) and read 10005 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

A side note, it was reported the that head of the aircraft company that built the plane died of heart attack during these tests. If I can find the article, I'll post the link.

User currently offlinefsnuffer From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 19 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult? As an armchair admiral, I would guess it limits the aircraft weights/payload that can be shot off the front of the carrier.

User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (2 years 18 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 13):
Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult? As an armchair admiral, I would guess it limits the aircraft weights/payload that can be shot off the front of the carrier.

The biggest problem is that it really only works for high thrust aircraft. You can make it work for fighters. You can use it to drastically improve the take off performance of VSTOL aircraft. What you generally can't do is make it get say an E-2 airborne. I doubt one could ever ramp launch an A-6 or an S-3 either. The biggest downside of this (other than not taking E-2/C-2 type aircraft which you might be able to replace with a V-22 type though I have my doubts) will be in the field of launching long endurance UAV's from your carriers. UAV's get their endurance generally by having large wing area and pretty low power to weight ratios. Most have pretty long and thin wings. They are just not suited for that kind of operation. That is a big benefit to EMALS for the USN is that it can smoothly accelerate more fragile drones allowing them to have lighter structures and experience less stress.

The load limit question is far more complicated and the best answer one can give is that it depends on the aircraft, deck length and jump angle.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 18 hours ago) and read 9795 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Considering how the Chinese seem to be aiming at copying the american style CVBG's and the fact that the Soviets used a completely different doctrine and employment for their "carriers", that seems unlikely.

The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.

Lets hope they did a better job on the carrier then with their Submarine's? If that is a model of how they improve on Russian tech... Then nobody needs to worry about the Chinese for the next couple of decades.

I remember speaking with a U.S. Navy sonar guy several years ago... He said the newest Chinese boomer sounded like a garbage truck dragging strings of cans (might as well have put a "Just Married" sign on the back of it!).  



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 9682 times:

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

There's more happening behind the scenes on the Vikramaditya deal that is not publicly stated; the cash transfers also serve as means to pay for the technology transfer and design support from the Russians on the SSBN program, whose collaborative effort is not publicly disclosed as a matter of official policy. Further, keep in mind that a second carrier is being built locally, and has floated out. A third carrier has been more or less finalized, with construction soon to begin.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7673 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 hours ago) and read 9580 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
There's more happening behind the scenes on the Vikramaditya deal that is not publicly stated

I've heard lots of stories about this project from Russian friends, it's hundreds of millions over budget mainly because it's making the yard directors and owners very rich.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 hours ago) and read 9555 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
it's making the yard directors and owners very rich.

Corruption in defence procurement is the rule everywhere in the world  



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 hours ago) and read 9488 times:

The PLAN CV has about the same displacement of the RN's new CVFs. However Liaoning is about 74' longer and slightly (about 3') shorter on her extreme waterline beam. But the Queen Elizabeth class CVFs carry more aircraft.

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9005 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 1):
I like the 2nd pic with the movie theater barricades. Tickets please!



And the last pic is very Top Gun... Why are there 2 guys pointing?? What if one them points the other direction?



You know what they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery. Looking at pictures and watching video of operation on the Liaoning it is obvious that the Chinese Navy has been studying USN carrier ops. Probably on YouTube.   Yellow shirts directing, green shirts running out to the plane after it has landed, final checkers although they should be wearing black and white checkerboard float coats.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8750 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 20):
You know what they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Its not imitating... it is looking around at what works, and adapting it to their use. Why reinvent what someone already perfected?

The Chinese never had a real concept of 'intellectual property', not cause they 'steal' other peoples 'ideas'... their society never had the concept of owning and idea.


And who is to say that their own domestically built and designed carriers are not going to be 'inspired' by current USN carriers? The Liaoning is just practice for the new ships which will operate like a Nimitz.


User currently onlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2456 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8708 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 21):
The Chinese never had a real concept of 'intellectual property', not cause they 'steal' other peoples 'ideas'... their society never had the concept of owning and idea.

Imitation is a virtue in Chinese society. Chinese pupils strive to imitate their teachers. If something is seen as superior, it is copied quickly. Since very long times, the Chinese were very willing to copy foreign ship designs, learn from foreign craftsmen and builders.

If there is something that hasn't been copied, it's the philosophy. They never forgot confucianism in favor of any other world view. Perhaps this is the backbone that has allowed all the technological advances, a steadfastness in their mindset.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8621 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 21):
Its not imitating... it is looking around at what works, and adapting it to their use. Why reinvent what someone already perfected?

Looks like imitation to me.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3695 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 8491 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
They have also spend a lot of money buying and studying aircraft designs from other nations.

And stealing them as well.


25 Oroka : Well, they were not going to openly share those designs. Still cheaper to steal the info than spend countless billion dollars making it work.
26 moo : No points are awarded for originality, just the end product. And China is certainly not the only country engaged in spying...
27 Acheron : It's all relative. The soviets decided against the steam catapults for the same reason they don't cover their decks with nonskid materials: the weath
28 SSTeve : While the US has a great history of military innovation, things would look totally different if we weren't up to some forthright stealing and imitati
29 Geezer : I only have two comments; the guy who took those photos was a pretty damned good photographer ! And.......... I never expected to see a Mig 29 with fo
31 garnetpalmetto : Su-33, Geezer, but the point still stands
32 Geezer : Oh wow........I stand corrected ! (Thanks GP) (but I'm still trying to figure out how to tell a Su-33 from a Su-27 ? (They all tend to look alike to
33 garnetpalmetto : Su-33s are outfitted for carrier ops, so folding wings would be your first, best indicator. The wing's also longer on it than a standard Flanker, it
34 Post contains images Acheron : You'd think the canards would be the most obvious giveaway
35 garnetpalmetto : Doh! Good call - forgot to highlight those too!
36 Geezer : So the Su-33 is just the "navalized" version of the Su-27......with an arresting hook, beefed up structure, folding wings, and canards ? Thanks GP an
37 MD11Engineer : The carrier is defintely a game changer in contested waters like the South China Sea and worries the navies of the smaller countries, which often have
38 garnetpalmetto : Pretty much. To be accurate, the aircraft pictured is actually a Shenyang J-15 (ie a Chinese copy of the Su-33). But yes, the Russians do have foldin
39 Post contains links MD11Engineer : Here is some more information about China´s territorial claims: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JS4VZbCWj8 and (From Pravda http://english.pravda.ru/
40 Aar90 : Not sure what your point in the above is. E-2C can "deck launch" (non-catapult) from current CVN angle decks. It is just much safer for all concerned
41 Post contains images justinlee : It's true. Actually the turboprop can take off with engine off, considering the wind over deck .The Chinese vision E-2, JZY-1, is ready to test on CV
42 Post contains images StudeDave : During my 20 years in the NAVY- I never heard of that rate- what does an 'NW' do? Maybe it's an old one- you did mention the Forrestal... But she was
43 Post contains images LMP737 : True enough. The angled deck, steam catapult and the optical landing system all British inventions.. Although I think the USN borrowed them. Someone
44 BigJKU : There is a huge difference between can and should. As you say with enough deck you can get something like that airborne. The question is with what am
45 justinlee : For experiments, that's fine. Remember the chinese government still calls Liaoning an Experimental Platform.
46 Aar90 : Not sure who you are citing, but I was manning up a MTOW E-2C (52,500#) for a deck launch when the injured person I was to carry off to a hospital...
47 Acheron : Yeah, and we all remember how the Varyag was only going to be a floating casino when it was purchased...
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
STS:123 Takeoff From My Vantage Point posted Fri May 21 2010 13:41:10 by eksath
Flare From A NJ ANG F-16 Starts Forest Fire posted Wed May 16 2007 02:12:53 by Dragon-wings
Landing And Take Off posted Mon May 2 2005 22:45:50 by EMBQA
Last C-141s To Retire From Active Service 9/16 posted Wed Sep 15 2004 22:39:01 by Ulfinator
F-16 Landing Speed And Fuel Consumption? posted Sun Mar 22 2009 15:09:55 by WESTERN737800
First And Only UK F-35B Rolled Out posted Tue Nov 22 2011 18:42:00 by yanqui67
C-141A Approach And Landing Speeds posted Sun Sep 12 2010 18:06:02 by boeing767mech
F-35 Succeeds In First Vertical Landing posted Thu Mar 18 2010 12:22:44 by yazoo
And So It Begins: The QF-16 posted Tue Mar 9 2010 20:02:01 by Spacepope
Raaf Orders First 14 F-35As From LM posted Fri Nov 27 2009 14:48:16 by KC135TopBoom

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format