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North Korea Launches Rocket  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

I put this here because I know this will descend to political discussion.

Fox reported to my phone's breaking news app that N Korea launched the Lode-Star 3 rocket (I'm not going to attempt to write out the korean) about 40 minutes ago. No further word on how it ended up.



Guys, this happens so often these days.   What can be done? What does this imply? If they are serious about a satellite program, then why be so secretive about it?


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3006 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6231 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
If they are serious about a satellite program, then why be so secretive about it?

What isn't secretive in the country?



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
What can be done?

More sanctions that seem to work oh so well.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
What does this imply?

That the North isn't going to stop shooting these rockets no matter what we do with the sanctions.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
If they are serious about a satellite program, then why be so secretive about it?

They're a secretive nation. Same thing with Iran and their nuclear program, why keep it a secret if it really is just for civilian energy use?



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6224 times:

Meh, NK is just a giant attention whore, nothing more. IMing my friend in SK now, gonna ask him about it...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
No further word on how it ended up.

If it worked, that'll be the first time in a number of tests.

Of course, we won't be able to know about that until the US or Japan or South Korea comment, since the North Koreans are going to say it went off spectacularly.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6159 times:

Looks like it got farther than that last 2.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/11/world/...rocket-launch/index.html?hpt=hp_t3



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7252 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6136 times:

I read about them preparing to launch a rocket a few days ago. Don't think this was not anticipated unless the type of rocket is different than they thought.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6110 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
Don't think this was not anticipated unless the type of rocket is different than they thought.

It just wasn't anticipated this soon because there's satellite images of them replacing the first stage just a few days ago. The world was thinking it was going to be more of a late December launch.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8921 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6083 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
What can be done?

Easy. We install THAAD ABM systems in S. Korea, and whenever N. Korea launches a rocket, we take the opportunity to do a live-fire drill and shoot it down. We'll get good practice and and we won't even have to pay for the targets.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/THAAD_Launcher.jpg



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6072 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 6):
I read about them preparing to launch a rocket a few days ago. Don't think this was not anticipated unless the type of rocket is different than they thought.

The type of rocket is the same and many experts said that the launch would be around Dec. 17. But then NK announced to delay the launch due to "various technical problems", and satellite images seemed to confirm it. And now they launch it before Dec. 17. Some intelligence officers will have a hard time the next days.

[Edited 2012-12-11 19:21:08]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6033 times:

Maybe work on electricity first...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/images/dprk-dmsp-dark.jpg


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6844 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Well the US also launched something into space today and are pretty secretive about it.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5988 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 1):
What isn't secretive in the country?

True   

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 2):
More sanctions that seem to work oh so well.

We need to figure out how to actually make sanctions work.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Meh, NK is just a giant attention whore

Ain't that the truth.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 5):
Looks like it got farther than that last 2.

That's what I heard. Went over Okinawa. Can radar track objects that enter into the upper atmosphere?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
Well the US also launched something into space today and are pretty secretive about it.

Well we're not prone to launching nukes to other nations....or at least threatening to.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 3006 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5953 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Well we're not prone to launching nukes to other nations

Who is? As far as I know, the United States is the only nation to have ever used a nuclear device against another...



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5950 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
We need to figure out how to actually make sanctions work.

The only way is if China and Russia cut the umbilical cord. Which is not going to happen anytime soon.

Well if they truly got something into orbit besides a golf ball I'll be shocked. The last two were a joke and chances are the next launch will be poor as well. They just don't have the resources to provide consistent safe launches. I know they want to be some all powerful nation, but couldn't the money spent on all of these launches and the previous ones gone somewhere better, say feeding their own people?
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
The only way is if China and Russia cut the umbilical cord. Which is not going to happen anytime soon.

What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
Well if they truly got something into orbit besides a golf ball I'll be shocked. The last two were a joke and chances are the next launch will be poor as well. They just don't have the resources to provide consistent safe launches. I know they want to be some all powerful nation, but couldn't the money spent on all of these launches and the previous ones gone somewhere better, say feeding their own people?

You're telling me.....anyone got more information on how successful this was?



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5926 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

They see            . North Korea is truly cut off from the rest of the world. They still need resources. Why not be the ones to profit from that?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
You're telling me.....anyone got more information on how successful this was?

I just saw on twitter that NORAD is reporting they launched an "object" into orbit. They aren't saying exactly what it is thought. Perhaps a North Korean copy of Sputnik? 
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5919 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

Russia was right there with the west on the last few launches telling them not to. China says that they're troubled but that's all that happens with that.

My theory on those two countries and their "support" is that if there ever was a war you couldn't have something like that happened in Vietnam where people would go through other countries, and as the fighting would go further and further North, you would be pushing people into China and Russia, they don't want to have to deal with refugees and fighting on their sides of the border. But again this is just what I think, I hope there is someone else who could give us a better reason.



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2392 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5872 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Easy. We install THAAD ABM systems in S. Korea, and whenever N. Korea launches a rocket, we take the opportunity to do a live-fire drill and shoot it down. We'll get good practice and and we won't even have to pay for the targets.

So an act of war? You really want to go there? Even if you don't care about North Koreans, are you willing to sacrifice a million South Koreans? You may want to remember that those folks are our friends. Perhaps the policy of containing the DPRK until it collapses of its own accord might not be so bad? We've waited six decades, why not a couple more?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

The Russian aren't happy at the moment, nor are the Chinese (although they're being very low key about that). The very last thing the Chinese want is for the North to provoke an actual war on the peninsula. Longer term, the Chinese' main concern is actually letting the DPRK collapse - they assume they'll have millions of refugees crossing the Yalu, and other trouble on their border. And once *that's* all resolved, they've have the ROK and the US right on their border. So long as the North Koreans keep themselves to mostly annoying South Korea, Japan and the United States, and the regime remains stable, the Chinese avoid a bunch of problems. Propping up an unsavory regime for their own benefit is hardly an uncommon action by nations...


User currently offlinekpitrrat From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5861 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Easy. We install THAAD ABM systems in S. Korea, and whenever N. Korea launches a rocket, we take the opportunity to do a live-fire drill and shoot it down. We'll get good practice and and we won't even have to pay for the targets.

Seems to be a pretty good idea to me. Aren't the South and North still "technically" at war just in the midst of some type of cease fire (not sure of the appropriate term).

Every time they decide to shoot a rocket blow it out of the sky, I'd say thats a legitimate reason to fire at it, the south can say they do not know what its for and pseuo legitimize its destruction?

Also I have heard that they have been aiming these rockets on a path that takes it close to coming over, or actually crossing over, Japan. Wouldn't that justify their destruction alone, obviously, we would need Japanese cooperation but still.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5780 times:

Shouldn't this thread be in the Military Av./Space forum?

From U.S. source: NK launched "an object" into orbit

NORAD: NKorea appears to have orbited 'an object'
WASHINGTON (AP) — The North American Aerospace Defense Command says North Korea appears to have launched "an object" into Earth orbit, but neither the missile used nor debris from the launch are a threat to North America.
NORAD officials said U.S. missile warning systems detected and tracked the launch at 7:49 p.m. EST Tuesday. The missile was tracked in a southerly direction.

read more:
http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/N...have-orbited-an-object-4110164.php

- Launch time 00:49:46 UTC
- Satellite released at T+9:27 (00:59:13 UTC)
- Orbit parameters 499.7 x 584.18 km x 97.4°, T=95 min 29 sec (note that this seems to fit best with NORAD object 39027/2012-072B)

Supposed to be 072A, not B. It is at 495 x 588 km.
Could be 3 "objects" they placed into orbit.
http://www.space.com/18867-north-korea-rocket-launch-satellite.html

Third NK launch infographics
http://www.space.com/15006-north-kor...a-3-rocket-launch-infographic.html

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4055 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5766 times:

EU is considering harder sanctions against North Korea together with it's allies, says EU's chief of foreign affairs Catherine Ashton

In Norwegian:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...med-rakettoppskytning-7067979.html


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5752 times:

The X-37B was launched about same timing. I wonder if there is any correlation between the two launches and if X-37B can "see" and watch the NK orbital object(s)?

They claim it's a weather satellite. It seems to have a polar orbit, probably sun-synchronous. Basically, three kinds of satellites use that sort of orbit; meteorological, mapping, and spy satellites. The former in order to monitor things like global temperature and improve weather forecast modeling, the latter two because it keeps the shadow angles the same on each pass and provides global coverage. I seriously doubt the north koreans put a satellite up there to check for global warming or see if polar bears are stranded on ice floats.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5728 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Easy. We install THAAD ABM systems in S. Korea, and whenever N. Korea launches a rocket, we take the opportunity to do a live-fire drill and shoot it down. We'll get good practice and and we won't even have to pay for the targets.

I can imagine the headline now, "65 dead in Seoul suburb as US plays wargames against weather satelite"

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Well we're not prone to launching nukes to other nations....or at least threatening to.

Really?

Fred


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12804 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5667 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
We need to figure out how to actually make sanctions work.

They don't and arguably never have. For example, 50 years of sanctions against Cuba has achieved nothing.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Well we're not prone to launching nukes to other nations....or at least threatening to.

Epic history fail.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5914 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

A poor, corrupt, funny DPRK is far better than a strong, rich, Republic of Korea with US Army in it. That's why although most of the Chinese see DPRK as a joke but we still need to support it anyway. Besides, these support is not for free. Chinese companies get 1 seaport, 2 Free Economy Zones and several mines in DPRK.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
The only way is if China and Russia cut the umbilical cord. Which is not going to happen anytime soon.

What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

It's still about global power and influence. It's still the same reason why both still support Assad in Syria, and why they use their veto in the UN Security Council to protect Iran. They still want various unaligned entities to know they are the ones to go to when they don't like the policies of the bad old Western Powers.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 18):
So an act of war? You really want to go there? Even if you don't care about North Koreans, are you willing to sacrifice a million South Koreans? You may want to remember that those folks are our friends. Perhaps the policy of containing the DPRK until it collapses of its own accord might not be so bad? We've waited six decades, why not a couple more?

Interesting how so many hated that policy during the Cold War, until it worked.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 23):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Well we're not prone to launching nukes to other nations....or at least threatening to.

Really?

Let's not go down that rat hole.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5733 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 21):
EU is considering harder sanctions against North Korea together with it's allies, says EU's chief of foreign affairs Catherine Ashton
Quoting scbriml (Reply 24):
They don't and arguably never have. For example, 50 years of sanctions against Cuba has achieved nothing.

I too am starting to question what this will do

Quoting scbriml (Reply 24):
Epic history fail.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Let's not go down that rat hole.

I'm not talking about Hiroshima/Nagasaki or Cold War. I'm talking about modern-day America



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12856 posts, RR: 25
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5696 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 24):
For example, 50 years of sanctions against Cuba has achieved nothing.

And neither did the Bay of Pigs Invasion. Next suggestion?

In reality, short of military intervention, there's not much one can do to another nation other than refusing to trade with them.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5638 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Well that didn't take long. Apparently the satellite is spinning out of control. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...t-of-control-us-officials-say?lite
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5571 times:
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Quoting justinlee (Reply 25):

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
What do they see in supporting such a regime? I just don't get it. Neither nation is communist anymore (despite the PRC's name) and Russia has reportedly had diplomatic run-ins with DPRK in the past....

A poor, corrupt, funny DPRK is far better than a strong, rich, Republic of Korea with US Army in it.

"Far better" you say? How? Be specific.

Let an average citizen from the DPRK enjoy the average standard of living found in South Korea for a week and then ask them which place is far better.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 492 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5560 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 29):
Well that didn't take long. Apparently the satellite is spinning out of control.

Can't really say I'm surprised by that.. Horay?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 30):
"Far better" you say? How? Be specific.

Well he's speaking from a Chinese perspective, which I could very well see being the reason. If the North falls to the South the U.S. has their sphere of influence that much closer to their borders



"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5542 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 25):
A poor, corrupt, funny DPRK is far better than a strong, rich, Republic of Korea with US Army in it.

A dictatorship who rules a starving country (ie funny) is better than a stable first world country because of the presence of 28 500 foreign troops there to help protect the country?

wow.


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5499 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):
A dictatorship who rules a starving country (ie funny) is better than a stable first world country because of the presence of 28 500 foreign troops there to help protect the country?

That's a tricky part of China's foreign policy. Among the dangerous neighbors, which I guess countries like Canada don't have   , we need to choose the less dangerous ones to fight against the most dangerous ones. That's why China supports DPRK, Pakistan, or Myanmar. Even DPRK is full of uncertainty, one thing is certain, it will not attack China anyway.

ROK, not like what you think, has one of the largest army in the world. It has 650,000 active military personnel, which ranks the 6th in the world. The military service is mandatory for every young man and it keeps one of the highest Military population to Total population ratio.

Besides, ROK has a territory claim for China's Changbai Mountain region (or Baekdu Mountain in Korea). I don't see anything better if China borders ROK. For the border disputes, see the wiki here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baekdu_Mountain#Border_disputes

[Edited 2012-12-12 17:47:05]

User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5448 times:
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Quoting justinlee (Reply 33):
Quoting Oroka (Reply 32):A dictatorship who rules a starving country (ie funny) is better than a stable first world country because of the presence of 28 500 foreign troops there to help protect the country?


That's a tricky part of China's foreign policy. Among the dangerous neighbors, which I guess countries like Canada don't have , we need to choose the less dangerous ones to fight against the most dangerous ones. That's why China supports DPRK, Pakistan, or Myanmar. Even DPRK is full of uncertainty, one thing is certain, it will not attack China anyway.

Unless I'm misreading this, you're saying aligning with a "less dangerous" neighbor like the DPRK is better than the "most dangerous" neighbor.

Who precisely is China's most dangerous neighbor, and in what manner are they dangerous?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5446 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Unless I'm misreading this, you're saying aligning with a "less dangerous" neighbor like the DPRK is better than the "most dangerous" neighbor.

Who precisely is China's most dangerous neighbor, and in what manner are they dangerous?

I would say Japan or India. Japan, hey, we hate each other and we may even, sadly, go to war for a piece of rock in the middle of nowhere (say Diaoyu Island in the recent case).

India, yeahhh, we have 125,000 sq kilometers (the size of Mississippi) of border dispute and we went to war for this region in 1962. What's more, both countries own nuclear weapon now.

Anyway, we are dangerous neighbors for each other  


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

So let me get this straight; The US and other countries launch thousands of 'objects', (many of them strictly military), on essentially upgraded ICBM's and that's just fine, but N.Korea finally gets something into orbit and the world has conniption fits.

All of the countries whining about N.Korea have littered space with crap. More hypocritical 'do as I say, not as I do' diplomacy for the rest of the world.

Much ado about nothing.



What the...?
User currently offlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5384 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
That's a tricky part of China's foreign policy. Among the dangerous neighbors, which I guess countries like Canada don't have   , we need to choose the less dangerous ones to fight against the most dangerous ones. That's why China supports DPRK, Pakistan, or Myanmar. Even DPRK is full of uncertainty, one thing is certain, it will not attack China anyway.

Hey Justin, do you seriously believe that a democratic, progressive, secular India is "more dangerous" to you than a fundamentalist Pakistan, in the long run? Sure, we're competing across the globe, we occasionally step on each others' toes, throw words at each other, have had a nasty war in '62 (which still causes us grief 50 yrs on), but come on....! We're not land grabbers, we're not harbouring terrorists, we're non threatening, except in business perhaps!

With a combined population of 2.7B+, neither of us is going to make the other disappear, so let's not even dream about it! The common enemy today is vastly different from what it was even a generation ago, and I think the world powers need to have a common vision. Yeah, wishful thinking, i know...........


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 29):
Well that didn't take long. Apparently the satellite is spinning out of control. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...?lite

LOL This is not surprising...better hope it doesn't impact any land



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5367 times:
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@ PHX - there are conflicting reports, as you can see below. Its orbiting alright, but whether its functioning is a question

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...llite-orbits-normally-3325055.html


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5219 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 37):
Hey Justin, do you seriously believe that a democratic, progressive, secular India is "more dangerous" to you than a fundamentalist Pakistan, in the long run? Sure, we're competing across the globe, we occasionally step on each others' toes, throw words at each other, have had a nasty war in '62 (which still causes us grief 50 yrs on), but come on....! We're not land grabbers, we're not harbouring terrorists, we're non threatening, except in business perhaps!

Yeah, I totally agree with you. What I said above is what the Chinese government think about. I just want to explain why they support some of the most corrupt and dangerous countries in the world. Been to India several times for business, I personally think we have more in common than difference.

The thing is that, political correctness is more important than realism in China. For example, China and Japan have such a strong economic connection, but a little rock in the ocean will still push the relationship over the edge. This is because anyone who makes a concession will be seen as Capitulators. The dispute will go into a one-way road. The same as India.


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6957 posts, RR: 76
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5109 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 17):
My theory on those two countries and their "support" is that if there ever was a war you couldn't have something like that happened in Vietnam where people would go through other countries, and as the fighting would go further and further North, you would be pushing people into China and Russia, they don't want to have to deal with refugees and fighting on their sides of the border. But again this is just what I think, I hope there is someone else who could give us a better reason.

I'm sure China would prefer a less crazy North Korea... in fact, they probably don't mind NK being absorbed to SK... the only problem is that it would bankrupt SK. China has the luxury of saying to NK, do too many funny things to us and we can squash you in a whiff. SK, wants a good NK, as buffer between it an China, SK can't say they prefer China taking over NK because then Japan would throw a fit. NK is a parasite China has to support unfortunately (at least China's trade with SK and Japan probably brings them more money than they handout to NK) for the sake of trade with SK and Japan. For Russia, anything that saps China but doesn't harm China, is good... while Japan continues to be the largest operating ground for NK's intelligence service (while my country, is rumoured to be NK Intelligence Service's largest training ground *sigh*).

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
Basically, three kinds of satellites use that sort of orbit; meteorological, mapping, and spy satellites.

Add the Iridium satellite network in that orbit...

Quoting justinlee (Reply 33):
ROK, not like what you think, has one of the largest army in the world. It has 650,000 active military personnel, which ranks the 6th in the world. The military service is mandatory for every young man and it keeps one of the highest Military population to Total population ratio.

They got 650,000 active military personnel because they got 3 generation of nutcases leading the buffer country between them and your country...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 41):
They got 650,000 active military personnel because they got 3 generation of nutcases leading the buffer country between them and your country...

Part of. Actually South Korea was basically ruled by military regime 1949-1987.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 39):
@ PHX - there are conflicting reports, as you can see below. Its orbiting alright, but whether its functioning is a question

Looks like S. Korea is reporting that the satallite is orbiting normally....

Quoting justinlee (Reply 42):
Part of. Actually South Korea was basically ruled by military regime 1949-1987.

Well I caution your dates there, they started to give more freedoms, for lack of better words, towards the 80s.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2170 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 43):

Quoting justinlee (Reply 42):
Part of. Actually South Korea was basically ruled by military regime 1949-1987.

Well I caution your dates there, they started to give more freedoms, for lack of better words, towards the 80s.

And this is a warning to all ruling military regime.

The South Korean military junta brought the South Korean economy into the 20th century. It gave it's people prosperity, which in turn brought it's down fall.

Better to keep your people in the dark and maintain your authority longer  . I guess the North Korean leadership has learned that lesson well.   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 44):
Better to keep your people in the dark and maintain your authority longer  . I guess the North Korean leadership has learned that lesson well.   

That's a sad truth. I think China is on the same way.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

NK to launch more "satellites" according to The Hindustan News

N Korea holds mass rally, vows more launches

Hundreds of thousands of North Koreans held a mass rally on Friday to celebrate the nuclear-armed state's rocket launch, as its youthful leader vowed new launches in defiance of US-led outrage.
Days before his first anniversary in charge of the isolated country, Kim Jong-Un upheld North Korea's "unshakable stand" that the rocket programme will continue despite UN condemnation and calls for new sanctions.
...
Unbowed, Kim stressed the need "to launch satellites in the future... to develop the country's science, technology and economy", according to the North's official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA).

more:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-...more-launches/Article1-972620.aspx

   Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 45):
. I think China is on the same way.

Well again I caution this. China's in different shoes. From a Maoist regime to "socialism with Chinese characteristics" to "state-controlled capitalism."

One thinks that democracy is the only thing that can come next, but so as long as the PRC is releasing 5-year plans, the governmental economy is still going to be state-controlled.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 21):

Haha, ridiculous, there is not any possible trade between North Korea and the EU, just hilarious... The collapsing EU is closing on the entire world on them with their sanctions and unilateral treaties, are they blind to see that they need the world more than it needs them.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Well we're not prone to launching nukes to other nations....or at least threatening to.PHX. NRT. CVG.

  

Wow, this must be a joke. Answer for five points: tell me the name of the only country who killed hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately with nuclear weapons and conducted a nuclear test last week?

a) North Korea
b) Russia
c) Japan
d) USA
e) Iran

   The answer is: ____   

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):

  

Finally some sane reasoning in here.


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):
So let me get this straight; The US and other countries launch thousands of 'objects', (many of them strictly military), on essentially upgraded ICBM's and that's just fine, but N.Korea finally gets something into orbit and the world has conniption fits.

All of the countries whining about N.Korea have littered space with crap. More hypocritical 'do as I say, not as I do' diplomacy for the rest of the world.

Much ado about nothing.

I don't really get too worked up about it. It is a minor technical achievement in these days but there are very good reasons for a lot of nations to worry about it.

US- General instability in the region that no one wants but I think US concerns are mostly driven by its allies. The US has to look like it cares because if it doesn't than its allies in the region who do care would not be happy. IIRC on the day of the launch the US reaction was really pretty mild and seemed to be more along the lines of not letting NK think it is too important because of this.

China- I actually think this kind of crap probably is more of a threat to China than anyone else. What China does not want or need is to see Japan or South Korea arming themselves in kind in an effort to deter North Korea. Both South Korea and Japan could pretty easily put nuclear weapons on ballistic launchers in short order if they perceive a North Korean threat and China hardly wants to see that happen.

Japan & South Korea- I think they have to act upset to get China and the US to deal with the problem. On some level they are not happy. If North Korea actually deployed a broad capability it may push them to further arm themselves. But the reaction to this one event is much more to get the US a little bit and China for the most part to keep control of the loons in NK.

This is just a big diplomatic game being played really. The reactions are predictable and boring honestly. North Korean leadership acts out to try and gain some more international concessions and for internal political reasons. Everyone responds as we know they will respond and the world keeps moving. I don't for a second think China will let North Korea evolve a real capability because they don't want to see Japan or South Korea develop a retaliatory capability.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 48):
Wow, this must be a joke. Answer for five points: tell me the name of the only country who killed hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately with nuclear weapons and conducted a nuclear test last week?

a) North Korea
b) Russia
c) Japan
d) USA
e) Iran

Debating the morality of the attacks on Japan would really necessitate everyone recognizing that it was a much different time in a much different conflict with a vastly different understanding of exactly what the weapon system being employed was. The fact of the matter is that in WWII there is not a single major combatant that would have not dropped those weapons on the enemy the second it was able to do so. In a war full of many horrors it was just one of them and was seen as far less unique at that time. People think differently now.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 36):
So let me get this straight; The US and other countries launch thousands of 'objects', (many of them strictly military), on essentially upgraded ICBM's and that's just fine, but N.Korea finally gets something into orbit and the world has conniption fits.

1950 North Korea started the Korea War. Its former enemies are now feeding many North Koreans. In return, they demand that the country spends the little it has on projects that promote a civil society. They demand that North Korea does not spend the few ressources it has on nuclear warheads and long range missiles.

Is that too much? In your opinion the answer is apparently: yes.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 48):
Haha, ridiculous, there is not any possible trade between North Korea and the EU, just hilarious...

Yeah, hilarious! Absolutely!
Unless of course you factor in tons of food and lots of other forms of aid. E.g. hospital equipment. Or who do you think build NK's "internet" (actually more a huge intranet)? And then there is the cultural exchange: sports, music ...

[Edited 2012-12-15 10:08:58]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14130 posts, RR: 62
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 40):
For example, China and Japan have such a strong economic connection, but a little rock in the ocean will still push the relationship over the edge. This is because anyone who makes a concession will be seen as Capitulators. The dispute will go into a one-way road. The same as India.

No, the true reason is (like with Canada contesting a little, barren, icy and uninhabited rock in the arctic with Greenland (and therefore Denmark a few years ago) that whoever owns the rock also gets a 200 mile exclusive economic zone around it. He will be the only one permitted e.g. to drill for oil or to catch fish there. The contested island between China and Japan lies in the middle of a suspected oil field.

Jan


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4511 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 48):
Wow, this must be a joke. Answer for five points: tell me the name of the only country who killed hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately with nuclear weapons and conducted a nuclear test last week?
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 49):
Debating the morality of the attacks on Japan would really necessitate everyone recognizing that it was a much different time in a much different conflict with a vastly different understanding of exactly what the weapon system being employed was.

Tupolev, read a book on the Pacific theater. It was either those lives lost, or millions slaughtered in operation Downfall. The ethics of the atomic bomb are being debated still today, but it ended the war before the war took too many lives.

Emperor Showa had it right when he ordered the surrender immediately--by October, Tokyo would have been nuked.


That was a time of war, this is a time of peace. N. Korea wants to break this peace.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 49):
China- I actually think this kind of crap probably is more of a threat to China than anyone else. What China does not want or need is to see Japan or South Korea arming themselves in kind in an effort to deter North Korea.

China is the biggest threat in the area. Their latest stunt in demanding ownership over the entire South China Sea has done more in one week to threaten conflict than N.Korea has done since the 1950's.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
That was a time of war, this is a time of peace. N. Korea wants to break this peace.

I'm not a fan of the regime but look around who has been starting wars in the past few decades. American led wars have cost trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives...and for what? Iraq is now largely under the control of Iran and Afghanistan will soon be back in the hands of the Taliban. During the American occupation, poppy production has grown every year to the point where it represents most of the Afghani GDP.

The world stood by and let the slaughter in Rwanda happen, and the same in Darfur, Somalia, Burma and a host of other locales. The sanctimonious tittering by the west about one crappy rocket is not impressing many.

N.Korea not only hasn't done much to break the peace, they couldn't if they wanted.



What the...?
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

While the South Korean's and to an extent, the Japanese, have reason to be worried about this vile, clapped out, technically backward, Orwellian regime, anyone else, particularly in the US (only remaining superpower still), who feels physically threatened by this launch really needs to chill out.
And if that includes those who were around during the Cold War, get help.

This launch is more about elements in the regime of DPRK positioning themselves, consolidating power. And internationally, getting the begging bowl out for food aid.
(So much for their 'Juche' policy of total self reliance, any food aid goes mostly to their armed forces, but even the DPRK showcase troops on the DMZ look rather smaller and less well nourished than their South Korean counterparts).

The only guy in DPRK who looks like he's never missed a meal is that brat of a leader. Who is most likely the puppet or some faction or other anyway.

But China would rather have them than several million refugees from a collapsed DRPK streaming across their border.
Deep down, despite the natural wish to see a united Korea, the leaders on the South probably think that too.

Unless you are born into one of that tight little circle at the top, about the worst place to come into the world is in the DPRK.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14130 posts, RR: 62
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
Emperor Showa had it right when he ordered the surrender immediately--by October, Tokyo would have been nuked.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
Tupolev, read a book on the Pacific theater. It was either those lives lost, or millions slaughtered in operation Downfall. The ethics of the atomic bomb are being debated still today, but it ended the war before the war took too many lives.

Read about operation "Downfall", the planned Allied invasion of Japan. In early summer 1945 Allied troops not needed anymore in Europe were drawn together and prepared to go to East Asia. After the experiences with fanatical Japanese resistance in Okinawa, Iwo Jima and Saipan, predictions were made for millions of casualties, both on Allied as well as on Japanese side. The nuclear bombongs cost about 200.000 lives, which is bad enough, but comparable to the conventional bombing raids e.g. on Tokyo during WW2.
The bombings together with the total annihilation of the Japanese Kwantung Army in a two weeks battle by the Soviets at about the same time caused Japan to surrender.

Jan


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2170 posts, RR: 4
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 48):
only country who killed hundreds of thousands of people indiscriminately with nuclear weapons

As other have noted. The deaths in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not indiscriminate. It was a coldly calculated numbers game. 1 bomb to do the job of a thousand bomber (with the associated attrition . . . even if there was no enemy fire) to do the job of a thousand ships . . . If your sons and daughters were on those ships, you would use the bomb too.

I bet, if Russia had the bomb, they would have used it on Berlin as opposed to losing thousands of soldiers taking it block by block. Or are you saying that Russian general did not care as much a bout their troops as American generals.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 55):
The bombings together with the total annihilation of the Japanese Kwantung Army in a two weeks battle by the Soviets at about the same time caused Japan to surrender.

Yeah, if I was king and had 20/20 hind site. I would have let the Russian offensive bring Japan to it's knees rather than having to use the bomb. Of course, how many Japanese lives would have lost to the Russian as opposed to the US? It's a numbers game that makes me not want to be king.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7754 posts, RR: 3
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Bikerthai

Actually, the Red Army made considerable use of mass attacks.

This entailed basicly throwing limitless numbers of troops at the enemy, particularly in the earlier stages of the war.

I do not think that mass losses were a major cause of concern to their leadership.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 56):
Or are you saying that Russian general did not care as much a bout their troops as American generals.

Zhukov might have done, Stalin certainly didn't.
If he could almost wipe out the Army Officer Corps in the 1930's......which almost lead to defeat in '41.

If the bomb had not been used, quite apart from likely very high Allied casualties, even worse Japanese civilian ones (they were indoctrinating kids to run at the Allied troops carry backpack bombs for heavens sake), had the war carried on long enough to allow a Russian landing on the home islands, you'd have had a floating Korea.
Another potential flash point for the coming Cold War.

Let's also not forget how enlightened MacArthur's post war running of Japan was too, he did more for Japanese peasants than Stalin ever did for his own, far more than the North Korean leadership ever did, to add a more local comparison. For a star, MacArthur, unlike Stalin, did not imprison and kill many thousands and starved millions
He allowed pragmatism to trump his own ideology.

While the USA has, like all nations, done some bad things, to try and make a moral judgement against the USA of Roosevelt's and Truman, when your own nation at the time was Stalin's USSR, seems at best, bizarre.
Imagine if Stalin had the A-Bomb in 1945? You shudder when doing so.

[Edited 2012-12-18 11:52:59]

User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2170 posts, RR: 4
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 60):
Imagine if Stalin had the A-Bomb in 1945?

And if he would have used it, I would understand the reason why.

And while it may not applies to Stalin, I will understand the mentality of getting all your soldiers home no matter the cost to the enemy.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
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