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China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet  
User currently offlinefly828 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10262 times:
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China's new Y-20 plane has a few pics leaked on a Chinese forum, see link: http://bbs.wforum.com/wmf/bbsviewer.php?trd_id=202954

it will serve the similar role as C-17 and IL-76, waiting for more clearer pictures to see the detail.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10062 times:

Y-20 is taking low speed taxi test now. It will take its first flight soon.

User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9695 times:

Certainly looks like a C-17 planform. Not sure about the size, but seems comparable. Compliments to the Chinese intelligence community.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9532 times:

Looks more like a underpowered jet A400M to me.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
Compliments to the Chinese intelligence community.

A military transport with a big fuselage, a high wing and tail, and four engines. Yes, the Chinese could never have come up with that concept on their own  



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2260 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9513 times:

I'd wager they could come up with it on their own. But I seriously doubt they did.

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9504 times:

I know they are blurry pictures, but from here it seems they are using the Il-76's D30 engines on it.

User currently offlineg38 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9434 times:
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Looks to me like a C-17 with the nose of an An-70 grafted on. Can't wait to see clearer pictures.

User currently offlinefly828 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9309 times:
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Honestly, even if it did get benefit from it's intelligent capability, it's still nothing shame but a great achievement for Chinese aviation industry. Let's be honest, either USSR or USA, who wasn't interested to steal technology from each other through their own spying act? MIG 15 vs F86, Concord vs Tu-144,VC-10 vs Il-62.....,this is the game played always in that way. It's just the matter now china becomes a player more and more apparently. It does not matter we like the fact or not, it's happening. We here often blame Chinese as a copy car of anything, but the other side is you have to respect Chinese has strong and even super capability in its very balanced industrial base and solid education base in science and engineering to support------when they produce something like airplane, we blame them copy cat, when they have world' no 1 dam, we blame them destroying environment, when they have the world's #1 high speed network completed in the shortest time period, we blame something else.....but never fairly admit their achievement in the matter itself.

The Y-20 is at it's very early stage as the project, the Chinese government is openly announcing spending billions of dollar to conquer the engine challenge, that is, to develop a reliable new engine to power it's large aircrafts. D30 is just a temporary solution before the new home developed engine gets certified. Eventually, Y-20 will be stretched in length to be more capable as well.


User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9147 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):
I know they are blurry pictures, but from here it seems they are using the Il-76's D30 engines on it.

It is D30 indeed. They may also use PS90 in the future.


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9072 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):

I know they are blurry pictures, but from here it seems they are using the Il-76's D30 engines on it.

You appear to be correct. It would be interesting to see fuselage dimensions, however it certainly appears to be a derivative of their Y-8/AN-12 projects (Y-8 is still in production, 2 were just delivered to Venezuela). Almost like they mixed an AN-12 with an IL-76.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8922 times:

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
who wasn't interested to steal technology from each other through their own spying act? MIG 15 vs F86, Concord vs Tu-144,VC-10 vs Il-62....

Of course there's espionage, but that doesn't mean these aircraft were copies of each other in any meaningful way.

The Y-20 has a very conventional configuration for an airlifter and it's clearly in a different class than the C-17 - Spacepope even suggests it's only An-12 size.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8855 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 10):

To be clear, I was just thinking the nose looks like their AN-12 knockoff. I saw rough drawings later today suggesting that the fuselage was IL-76 length but wider, sorta fitting in the C-2 to A-400M size sweet spot. I think we will see better pics pretty soon, if the J-31 is any indication.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3761 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8729 times:

I don't think it looks like a C-17, more like an An-70 with jets.

And it's not like there's a wide choice of design options when it comes to military airlifters with rough field capability.
The basic design is always the same: high wing, negative dihedral, T-tail, landing gear in pods, rear ramp, etc...

I am guessing there was some help from russian or ukranian manufacturers.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8686 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
I am guessing there was some help from russian or ukranian manufacturers.

China aviation industrial group acquired a team of Antonov experts. And the previous model of Y-20 is largely based on An-70. But the current model is modified a lot.


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3761 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8317 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 13):

Thanks!

I was right about the antonov genes then..
Is it the size of an AN-70?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8301 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
Thanks!

I was right about the antonov genes then..
Is it the size of an AN-70?

There is a rumor says actually Y-20 is An70-600 Jets. The frame is based on An70-600, but the engines are D30/PS90.


User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8290 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 15):
There is a rumor says actually Y-20 is An70-600 Jets

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vyacheslav Smigunov



That seems to make sense, for Antonov too.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8235 times:

Quoting justinlee (Reply 15):
There is a rumor says actually Y-20 is An70-600 Jets. The frame is based on An70-600, but the engines are D30/PS90.

Which was mentioned by GlobalSecurity.org some time ago.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-xx-antonov.htm


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3761 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8164 times:

That ought to be a nice freighter. Can't wait for clearer pictures of it.


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8128 times:

Capacity is suppose to be 60 tonnes, about half way between the 37 tonne A-400M and the 77.5 tonne C-17A.

Here is what wiki says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-20


User currently offlineneutronstar73 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 506 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8113 times:

Transport aircraft really can't be to different in design, although I'm sure China copied many elements of both US and Rus aircraft. You could design an airplane to load a tank from the side and be completely different from established designs, but why?

User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8111 times:

I prefer to compare gross weights.

C-130J: 79 tonnes
A400M: 141 tonnes
An-70: 145 tonnes
Il-76 with D30 engines: 170 tonnes
Il-76 with PS-90 engines: 195 tonnes
C-17: 265 tonnes

[Edited 2012-12-27 14:14:21]


The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7712 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 3):
A military transport with a big fuselage, a high wing and tail, and four engines. Yes, the Chinese could never have come up with that concept on their own

Hey, you know what they say... imitation is the highest form of flattery!   



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinejustinlee From China, joined Aug 2012, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 22):
Hey, you know what they say... imitation is the highest form of flattery!   

And, go the way of the U.S., leave U.S. no way to go.  


User currently offlinegeekydude From China, joined Apr 2004, 401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5907 times:

The fat bird has taken off.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f0d_1359210930



FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3761 posts, RR: 11
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6096 times:

Yeah. Okay.
That doesn't look much like an An-70 after all.
I eat my words...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently onlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5849 times:

Here's the best pic so far:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attac...p?attachmentid=211758&d=1359274330


http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/758378.shtml

[Edited 2013-01-27 09:14:46]

Here's a good vid of the flight from the company airfield:

http://news.cntv.cn/2013/01/27/VIDE1359263529914653.shtml


[Edited 2013-01-27 09:16:41]


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinekaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 740 posts, RR: 12
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5901 times:

Is it me or this thing looks like a 4-engine version of the Kawasaki C-2?




I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

From the video, it looks that upon landing the horizontal tailplane oscillates around its connection to the fin.
Am I right, and if yes, is that normal for a T tail to behave like that?


User currently offlinefly828 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5800 times:
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C-2 does not look like Y-20 that much to me, after all C-2 is only capable of 37 tons' payload while Y-20 has 66 tons, according to Chinese official data. No comparison at close.

I think C-17, IL-76 and Y-20 is one tier, and C-2, A400M is the other.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6654 posts, RR: 11
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5293 times:

Well, we'll see if it has that much capability when a tank will be flying in it. What China's and Russia's industries lack the most are competitive engines, and a first flight with an old engine (just like their new fighter) doesn't give much confidence in their ability to close the gap.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinesprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1853 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
Honestly, even if it did get benefit from it's intelligent capability, it's still nothing shame but a great achievement for Chinese aviation industry. Let's be honest, either USSR or USA, who wasn't interested to steal technology from each other through their own spying act? MIG 15 vs F86, Concord vs Tu-144,VC-10 vs Il-62

I would disagree, the Mig 15 was a shock to the US, I don't think there was any copying involved, with the exception of the British engines. The VC=10 vs the Il-62, the Concorde vs the Tu-144, and many others, yes. Hell I even read some stories that when the Tu-4 was copied, that nobody was brave enough to "not copy" the rudder pedals, so they even said "Boeing" on them. Coping is fine to "catch up" but by the time you "catch up" the world has pasted you by. This sort of looks like the YC-15 in my opinion. Its one thing to copy, but another to design your own. The US does copy, however, we also reverse engineer it to see why it is better. I think that is why our defense spending is so much. We do look at what else everybody is making, see how we can improve it, and call it our own(Carrier decks anyone?). But I don't think there has been anything that we "copied". If China thinks that they can "copy" their way to be a global power, then they have a rude awaking coming. To think they can send their best and brightest minds here to learn, but to never let them be free thinkers(which would be the down fall of communist China) is just asking for the best set of copiers in the world

Just my opinion

Dan in Juoter


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
Concord vs Tu-144

Hardly.

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
We here often blame Chinese as a copy car of anything, but the other side is you have to respect Chinese has strong and even super capability in its very balanced industrial base and solid education base in science and engineering to support

Thing is, for every thing USA or the Soviets copied from each other, there were dozens of original designs, solutions and materials, unlike China, where pretty much the entirety of their hardware its either a derivative of a foreign design or an outright copy.

This guarantees they stay behind on the curve, as shown by their issues with the WS-10 engine, a derivative made out of a copy of a CFM56 core and their Flanker clones, who despite being more modern, haven't been able to match the originals in Chinese service and even their own J-10A.

Of course, most of it being a copy of an existing design allows for quick development times that look impressive to the outside world.


User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3761 posts, RR: 11
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting fly828 (Reply 29):
I think C-17, IL-76 and Y-20 is one tier,

Yes, definitely the offspring of a forbidden encounter between a C-17 and an Il-76...

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 27):
Is it me or this thing looks like a 4-engine version of the Kawasaki C-2?

It does look familiar indeed. There is some of the 'form follows function' to that, and I also believe that the C-2 borrowed some design cues from the C-17 as well, didn't it?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinefly828 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4615 times:
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'It does look familiar indeed. There is some of the 'form follows function' to that, and I also believe that the C-2 borrowed some design cues from the C-17 as well, didn't it?'

---when we discuss any military project in China, such as Y-20, we should always keep another thing in mind that is, you may use "borrow" the design from US, because countries like Japan and India....do have the access to matured US technology to intergrate to "their" own product, look at Japan's F-2---do we call it a copy to F-16? when we look at India's LCA, from avitronics to engine, how much were really developed by itself? and we are openly "share"technology with these countries.

what about China? how much we can openly sell to China, or really, how much China can openly buy from us? then, if not, for a country as major as China is, would give up it's ambition to acquire some equiptment simply because somebody else has already inovated some concept proved to be successful? of course not, reverse engineering is certainly the result of many policies of our own.

when saying copy, honestly I don't think aircraft will be something easy to copied, it can only be copied or, reverse engineered by some country who itself has very solid tech and engineering capability, which China is certainly at the top of that group.

My whole point is, Y-20 seems to be a real success for chinese aircraft engineering, and we should all welcom it to the stage. With very limited access to the resource and support from the west, it's take off deserves a big congratulation.


User currently offlinedlednicer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 544 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4560 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR

This photo got accepted today:

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © goneless



User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1050 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4531 times:

It is a nice design, it just needs better engines.

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4406 times:

Quoting fly828 (Reply 34):
do have the access to matured US technology to intergrate to "their" own product, look at Japan's F-2---do we call it a copy to F-16? when we look at India's LCA, from avitronics to engine, how much were really developed by itself? and we are openly "share"technology with these countries.

The F-2 is a copy/derivative of the F-16. The LCA is a completely different matter.

Thing is, unlike China, neither Japan nor India go around trying to convince everybody that their aeronautic industry is "generations ahead of that of Russia and the US" while churning out copies of 50's and 60's designs, nor do they try to convince people that their copies are completely "indigenous design".

Quoting fly828 (Reply 34):
when saying copy, honestly I don't think aircraft will be something easy to copied, it can only be copied or, reverse engineered by some country who itself has very solid tech and engineering capability,

It isn't easy, but it is far more easy than doing your own R&D for materials, designs, etc. as shown by their many issues with the WS-10 engine(despite having a CFM56 core).

Quoting fly828 (Reply 34):
With very limited access to the resource and support from the west, it's take off deserves a big congratulation.

Thats why they resort to "unwilling support" from the west, like hacking. Also, they get plenty of support from Israel and France.


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