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India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales  
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14871 times:

It seems that India is interested to buy more rafale fighters : 63 more than previously planned !


http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/entrep...-189-rafale-a-dassault_369079.html

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14857 times:

All well and good, and congratulations to Dassault.

- I don't expect India to pay full list for these a/c, or else industrial offsets of >100%, since France is desperate to export the a/c.
- Relatively few will be built in France, most will come off an FAL at HAL. Probably the first batch will be in knocked-down kit form, then HAL will build up their capability.
- Considering the way the Indian bureaucracy works, by the time the Indian Rafales achieve IOC, France will be retiring theirs - to be replaced by Tanaris/Neuron, or successors.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14825 times:

It could be the trigger for other clients which didn't want to be the first to buy the plane ...
And it's a good sign for future enhancements.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 14813 times:

http://static.lexpansion.com/medias/...e-militaire-le-14-juillet-2012.jpg


English report here.....

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Quote:
"'The first aircraft will be delivered three years after signature of the contract,' the source added.

An industry expert said the time lag reflected India’s request for two-seater jets rather than the one-seater model that Dassault currently produces.

India has insisted that the deal involves significant technology transfer and that Indian suppliers secure work equivalent to around half of the value of the contract.

'The negotiations for off-sets are progressing well,' the source added.

The conclusion of the deal has been repeatedly delayed, with India having initially set a target of the end of last year, which slipped to March 31, 2013, the end of the current fiscal year."


Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
I don't expect India to pay full list for these a/c, or else industrial offsets of >100%

Dangling the possibility of an additional order and bargaining very hard to lock down the price and offsets before signing.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
since France is desperate to export the a/c.

Their desperation is probably much less than before they were selected   .

Quote:
"French defense sources said last week that was unlikely to be met but voiced confidence it would finally be done, a stance echoed by Khurshid on his visit to Paris.

'We know good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts,' Khurshid said after a meeting with French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius. 'The contract details are being worked out. A decision has already been taken; just wait a little for the cork to pop and you’ll have some good wine to taste'."


Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
Considering the way the Indian bureaucracy works, by the time the Indian Rafales achieve IOC, France will be retiring theirs - to be replaced by Tanaris/Neuron, or successors.

Would have been just right had they ordered the A400M transport.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14776 times:

I guess that when the buyer wants to have an assembly line, technology transfers etc., at some point if the price increases they're too committed to back down.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinewb556 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14587 times:

Are there any renderings of a two seater out there?

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14541 times:

Sure.

Here is a fairly accurate rendering of what a two-seater Rafale would look like:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marinus Dirk Tabak



 

It's great to see India commiting to the program. Seeing concrete operational results on the battlefield probably did help them comfort their decision.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14515 times:

Up close and personal.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arpit Agrawal
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vishal Jolapara - Indian Aviation Photographers



Impressive loadout.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wagner Damasio - Cavok Brasil Team
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alan Cordina


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Gould



[Edited 2013-01-17 16:07:21]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 14346 times:

Quoting sebolino (Thread starter):
63 more than previously planned !

If I remember right, the initial requirement was 126 planes but the possibility of procuring 60 more planes has been suggested since the begining?



Stephane
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14317 times:

Sure, it was 126.

I don't know if it's related, but after the beginning of the operations in Mali, India has showed its interest for 63 additional planes.

[Edited 2013-01-18 02:25:31]

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 14235 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 9):
but after the beginning of the operations in Mali

They wouldn't have been that reactive. Definitely not the way Indian politics work.

Now, Libya. That might have helped its case...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 14212 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 9):

What does Mali prove about the Rafale?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13689 times:

French Avionics showing the way  


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13678 times:

I wonder if other clients will follow.

For the moment, UAE and Brasil are still possible clients, it seems ...

[Edited 2013-01-21 03:20:49]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

Speaking to IAF persons....this was a fair choice, based on quality/requirements & price.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 971 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 13344 times:

Delays because Dassault does not produce two.seaters? That sounds strange.

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week ago) and read 13299 times:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 15):
Delays because Dassault does not produce two.seaters?

I doubt the accuracy of the article on that point. They're probably still ironing out technical details. The Indian specced Rafales will likely differ from the French AF ones.
The Indian 2 seaters will probably require additional features that the original 2 seater doesn't have, especially since most of the Indian fleet will be based around that model.

Interestingly, the French AF initially only wanted the 2 seater for training and expected the highly automated systems to let one pilot easily carry out any mission. They were very doubtful of the use of the second guy on combat missions.

Now it seems that operational experience has once again proved the value of having a second man on board on complex missions, especially air to ground stuff in a hostile environment and that the 2 seater has proven its value as a lot more than a trainer.

That said, other than the extra seat, modified ECS, less fuel and more weight, I don't think there is any difference between the 1 and 2 seaters.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10727 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Now it seems that operational experience has once again proved the value of having a second man on board on complex missions, especially air to ground stuff in a hostile environment and that the 2 seater has proven its value as a lot more than a trainer.

It would mean a compromise on the range......



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLegRoomPlease From Netherlands, joined Jul 2010, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10262 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 13):
I wonder if other clients will follow.

For the moment, UAE and Brasil are still possible clients, it seems ...

Your post got me thinking. Brazil seems to be much more likely to become a customer for the Rafale than UAE, due to to my assumption that there are still alot of ex Pakistan airforce personnel on some sort of duty in UAE. Conflict of interest for the Indian airforce. I mean why buy something that your potential enemy will get a chance to exemine, remember the Mig-21 defection from Iraq to Israel.

Brazil, on the other hand, could have chosen for the F-18 and I actually thought they might be able to get a good price plus maybe even tech transfer due to the Chevron fiasco there, but after the latest Snowden revelations about NSA spying on Rousseff I doubt that Brazil will buy anything from the US.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

Estimates are total deal is worth $20 Billion. First 16 will be French built. Remaining will be assembled in India. I think the major concern Dassault has was about HAL's work load. HAL is working on way too many projects same time and Dassault is concerned that Rafael delivery schedule will suffer.

User currently offlinemrg From Germany, joined Jul 2013, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10175 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 6):
Here is a fairly accurate rendering of what a two-seater Rafale would look like:

My goodness, that looks so, er.......real  
Quoting LegRoomPlease (Reply 18):
I mean why buy something that your potential enemy will get a chance to exemine

The Spanish gave the Argentinians technical information about the Harrier. It didn't help them. The Brits knew all they needed to know about the Exocet. Didn't help them much either.


User currently offlineLegRoomPlease From Netherlands, joined Jul 2010, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10133 times:

Hi mrg,

I knew that the French stopped the delivery of Exocet's, if I remember correctly they went through Chile, plus they gave the Brits the radar codes or something like that.

Quoting mrg (Reply 20):
The Spanish gave the Argentinians technical information about the Harrier.

I didn't know this, was it just tech info or actual pilot tactics etc?


User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 10105 times:

Quoting mrg (Reply 20):

They already had the brochures. When their aircraft carrier was delivered from the Netherlands in 1969, the Harrier GR.I was demonstrated on board by Hawker Siddeley.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinefbwless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10020 times:

http://www.english.rfi.fr/asia-pacif...led-again-indian-negotiators-death

Seems like negotiations have stalled, again. You have to wonder if this deal will ever be finalized.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9605 times:

You gotta love India.

Negociations take so long that the poor negiotator had time to pass away.
Of course by the time his replacement is found and up to speed, elections will come around and the government will change, probably imposing a further review and delay on the whole thing.

Dealing with the Indian government around these kinds of deals has to be the most frustrating thing. Ever.
It would push even John Leahy over the edge of sanity...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
25 art : It helps that there is no AMCA due to come into service say 2020. Without that there is no alternative to Rafale as a medium weight fighter so a new
26 Post contains links india1 : And then we have this report.... so in 5 months, we should have a done deal? http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...orce-says/articleshow/24303438.cms
27 KC135Hydraulics : How does the Rafale compare to the Eurofighter, F-15, F-22, etc? Is this a top-of-the-line product or a second-line aircraft? What are some of the adv
28 india1 : I dont think the Rafale measures up to the F22, simply because its a half a generation earlier and is designed to be smaller/less capable due to a di
29 seahawk : F-22 is a different league, but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.
30 KC135Hydraulics : In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?
31 TheSonntag : Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.
32 DTW2HYD : Eurofighter also made to final round. India is more interested in technology transfer, local assembly and what % of content is subject to sanctions.
33 Post contains images francoflier : I would say versatility. The fact that the Rafale has been succesfully combat proven has helped. Oh, that's right. If it's European, especially if it
34 Post contains images comorin : So the US is in a habit of doing this? I did not know that. Also, why bring up the F-16, it was never under consideration. The IAF required a two-eng
35 queb : Definitely the most versatile fighter available right now, including a (real) naval variant. It's sad that Canada will not consider this aircraft...
36 Post contains links DTW2HYD : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...Lockheed_Martin_F-16IN_Super_Viper
37 Revelation : Not understanding your rant. The finalists were Eurofighter and Rafale, and Rafale was chosen on the basis of price, local manufacture and technology
38 Post contains links ElPistolero : This article does a fairly good job of summarizing the Eurofighter's shortcomings. "Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Del
39 Powerslide : Won't be in 2025 once the RCAF plans to start real operations with a new fighter (F-35). Choosing fighter jets for Air Forces isn't a popularity cont
40 queb : Lol! last time, it was 2016...[Edited 2013-10-21 04:14:44]
41 MD11Engineer : From what I understand, the Eurofighter was optimised for air to air combat and other roles (e.g. CAS and bombing) secondary, while the Rafale was des
42 Powerslide : Lol! Operations, not acquisitions.
43 bilgerat : Basically Rafale is a more mature platform than Typhoon. The French were smart enough to press ahead integrating stuff like full A-G capabilities and
44 HAWK21M : When does the 1st Rafale fly in IAF Colours.....
45 queb : The contract is not signed yet.
46 HAWK21M : What exactly is the delay.......
47 Post contains links queb : Negociations, bureaucracy, etc http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ndia-defence-idUSBRE99G0OG20131017
48 Max Q : Eurofighter is ugly. Rafale is beautiful, simple as that.
49 sturmovik : In it's basic form it's pretty in its own right, though I agree the Rafale is prettier, such amazing curves. Also, Eurofighter are working hard at ug
50 AF1624 : If you've ever tried to negotiate anything with the Indian government, you'll know how hard it can get. The bureaucracy there is outstanding & be
51 Max Q : It would look OK but for the massive square intakes underneath, I know it's not meant to be stealthy but that can't be great for it's radar signature
52 Post contains links DTW2HYD : Looks like there is some progress. It appears Dassault got its way to source some parts from Indian private sector. Using only public sector (HAL) was
53 Post contains links ThePointblank : It appears that the Rafale deal is turning into a can of worms with the price of each jet projected to cost DOUBLE of what was bid: http://www.dnaindi
54 bennett123 : Pity they did not order in 2007. Not sure when their elections are. Sounds as if the decision will not be made any time soon.
55 solarflyer22 : I don't really like this plane to be totally honest but this is a huge win for France that they needed. India is a huge country and the anchor-point f
56 india1 : Strong correction - India has NEVER "attacked" Kashmir; why would we - It's an integral part of our country!!!!!! The then princely state legally acc
57 sturmovik : Even if, and it's a big if, we attacked (Pakistan occupied)Kashmir or Pakistan itself, why on earth would we attack Israel? That's just absurd.. Isra
58 KiwiRob : Prince Hari Singh made the wrong choice, he made the decision on what was best for him not the 77% muslim majority (1941 British census), that was bo
59 india1 : I dont want to get into politics in a milav thread, but I would think that the Pakistanis then should have exercised more restraint before marching i
60 solarflyer22 : Oh I am just stating a hypothetical. The point I was making is that you have a hard dependency on France now to support those fighter planes. If Fran
61 sturmovik : I agree that India hasn't exactly had a brilliant relationship with in the past, and due to the large muslim population (as well as leftist political
62 Post contains links solarflyer22 : Right, that's why I was a little surprised because India has a great relationship with Russia and some squadrons of SU-3X. I probably would have expa
63 KiwiRob : In this we have, the French blew up a Greenpeace ship in Auckland, our first and so far only terrorist attack.
64 WingsFan : One of the main reason why the US offerings were rejected by India was due to US govt's reluctance to part with the technology used in these planes. O
65 india1 : @ Solarflyer - BTW did you know Israel is our 2nd largest supplier of defense weapons (after Russia)? I think we're trying to broadbase now - Russia,
66 Pyrex : It is absurd, but then again so is his obsession with Israel. India already has plenty of Russian planes to counter that. In fact, Russian planes so
67 Post contains links mrg : France has the third largest Jewish after the USA and Israel. A Jew has even been France's Prime Minister. Your assertion is simply idiotic. No other
68 Post contains links Pyrex : Getting smaller by the day as they are persecuted into fleeing to Israel. If you think Jews in France don't have to deal with constant demonstrations
69 solarflyer22 : I don't think so. I don't think there is anything absurd in preparing to fight any potential foe, even some current allys. Yeah, Japan too. No I don'
70 Post contains links sturmovik : http://www.livemint.com/Politics/bk6...hter-jet-deal-only-under-next.html Looks like the wait just got longer.
71 DTW2HYD : Only 18 will be built in France, rest will be produced in India thru technology transfer. India will have enough spares and ability produce certain p
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