Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales  
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15047 times:

It seems that India is interested to buy more rafale fighters : 63 more than previously planned !


http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/entrep...-189-rafale-a-dassault_369079.html

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15033 times:

All well and good, and congratulations to Dassault.

- I don't expect India to pay full list for these a/c, or else industrial offsets of >100%, since France is desperate to export the a/c.
- Relatively few will be built in France, most will come off an FAL at HAL. Probably the first batch will be in knocked-down kit form, then HAL will build up their capability.
- Considering the way the Indian bureaucracy works, by the time the Indian Rafales achieve IOC, France will be retiring theirs - to be replaced by Tanaris/Neuron, or successors.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15001 times:

It could be the trigger for other clients which didn't want to be the first to buy the plane ...
And it's a good sign for future enhancements.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4879 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 14989 times:

http://static.lexpansion.com/medias/...e-militaire-le-14-juillet-2012.jpg


English report here.....

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Quote:
"'The first aircraft will be delivered three years after signature of the contract,' the source added.

An industry expert said the time lag reflected India’s request for two-seater jets rather than the one-seater model that Dassault currently produces.

India has insisted that the deal involves significant technology transfer and that Indian suppliers secure work equivalent to around half of the value of the contract.

'The negotiations for off-sets are progressing well,' the source added.

The conclusion of the deal has been repeatedly delayed, with India having initially set a target of the end of last year, which slipped to March 31, 2013, the end of the current fiscal year."


Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
I don't expect India to pay full list for these a/c, or else industrial offsets of >100%

Dangling the possibility of an additional order and bargaining very hard to lock down the price and offsets before signing.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
since France is desperate to export the a/c.

Their desperation is probably much less than before they were selected   .

Quote:
"French defense sources said last week that was unlikely to be met but voiced confidence it would finally be done, a stance echoed by Khurshid on his visit to Paris.

'We know good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts,' Khurshid said after a meeting with French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius. 'The contract details are being worked out. A decision has already been taken; just wait a little for the cork to pop and you’ll have some good wine to taste'."


Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
Considering the way the Indian bureaucracy works, by the time the Indian Rafales achieve IOC, France will be retiring theirs - to be replaced by Tanaris/Neuron, or successors.

Would have been just right had they ordered the A400M transport.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14952 times:

I guess that when the buyer wants to have an assembly line, technology transfers etc., at some point if the price increases they're too committed to back down.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinewb556 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 14763 times:

Are there any renderings of a two seater out there?

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14717 times:

Sure.

Here is a fairly accurate rendering of what a two-seater Rafale would look like:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marinus Dirk Tabak



 

It's great to see India commiting to the program. Seeing concrete operational results on the battlefield probably did help them comfort their decision.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4879 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14691 times:

Up close and personal.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arpit Agrawal
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vishal Jolapara - Indian Aviation Photographers



Impressive loadout.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Wagner Damasio - Cavok Brasil Team
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alan Cordina


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Gould



[Edited 2013-01-17 16:07:21]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 14522 times:

Quoting sebolino (Thread starter):
63 more than previously planned !

If I remember right, the initial requirement was 126 planes but the possibility of procuring 60 more planes has been suggested since the begining?



Stephane
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 14493 times:

Sure, it was 126.

I don't know if it's related, but after the beginning of the operations in Mali, India has showed its interest for 63 additional planes.

[Edited 2013-01-18 02:25:31]

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 14411 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 9):
but after the beginning of the operations in Mali

They wouldn't have been that reactive. Definitely not the way Indian politics work.

Now, Libya. That might have helped its case...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3956 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 14388 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 9):

What does Mali prove about the Rafale?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13865 times:

French Avionics showing the way  


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13854 times:

I wonder if other clients will follow.

For the moment, UAE and Brasil are still possible clients, it seems ...

[Edited 2013-01-21 03:20:49]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13683 times:

Speaking to IAF persons....this was a fair choice, based on quality/requirements & price.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13520 times:

Delays because Dassault does not produce two.seaters? That sounds strange.

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13475 times:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 15):
Delays because Dassault does not produce two.seaters?

I doubt the accuracy of the article on that point. They're probably still ironing out technical details. The Indian specced Rafales will likely differ from the French AF ones.
The Indian 2 seaters will probably require additional features that the original 2 seater doesn't have, especially since most of the Indian fleet will be based around that model.

Interestingly, the French AF initially only wanted the 2 seater for training and expected the highly automated systems to let one pilot easily carry out any mission. They were very doubtful of the use of the second guy on combat missions.

Now it seems that operational experience has once again proved the value of having a second man on board on complex missions, especially air to ground stuff in a hostile environment and that the 2 seater has proven its value as a lot more than a trainer.

That said, other than the extra seat, modified ECS, less fuel and more weight, I don't think there is any difference between the 1 and 2 seaters.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10903 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Now it seems that operational experience has once again proved the value of having a second man on board on complex missions, especially air to ground stuff in a hostile environment and that the 2 seater has proven its value as a lot more than a trainer.

It would mean a compromise on the range......



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLegRoomPlease From Netherlands, joined Jul 2010, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10438 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 13):
I wonder if other clients will follow.

For the moment, UAE and Brasil are still possible clients, it seems ...

Your post got me thinking. Brazil seems to be much more likely to become a customer for the Rafale than UAE, due to to my assumption that there are still alot of ex Pakistan airforce personnel on some sort of duty in UAE. Conflict of interest for the Indian airforce. I mean why buy something that your potential enemy will get a chance to exemine, remember the Mig-21 defection from Iraq to Israel.

Brazil, on the other hand, could have chosen for the F-18 and I actually thought they might be able to get a good price plus maybe even tech transfer due to the Chevron fiasco there, but after the latest Snowden revelations about NSA spying on Rousseff I doubt that Brazil will buy anything from the US.


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2085 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10362 times:

Estimates are total deal is worth $20 Billion. First 16 will be French built. Remaining will be assembled in India. I think the major concern Dassault has was about HAL's work load. HAL is working on way too many projects same time and Dassault is concerned that Rafael delivery schedule will suffer.

User currently offlinemrg From Germany, joined Jul 2013, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10351 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 6):
Here is a fairly accurate rendering of what a two-seater Rafale would look like:

My goodness, that looks so, er.......real  
Quoting LegRoomPlease (Reply 18):
I mean why buy something that your potential enemy will get a chance to exemine

The Spanish gave the Argentinians technical information about the Harrier. It didn't help them. The Brits knew all they needed to know about the Exocet. Didn't help them much either.


User currently offlineLegRoomPlease From Netherlands, joined Jul 2010, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10309 times:

Hi mrg,

I knew that the French stopped the delivery of Exocet's, if I remember correctly they went through Chile, plus they gave the Brits the radar codes or something like that.

Quoting mrg (Reply 20):
The Spanish gave the Argentinians technical information about the Harrier.

I didn't know this, was it just tech info or actual pilot tactics etc?


User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3956 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10281 times:

Quoting mrg (Reply 20):

They already had the brochures. When their aircraft carrier was delivered from the Netherlands in 1969, the Harrier GR.I was demonstrated on board by Hawker Siddeley.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinefbwless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10196 times:

http://www.english.rfi.fr/asia-pacif...led-again-indian-negotiators-death

Seems like negotiations have stalled, again. You have to wonder if this deal will ever be finalized.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9781 times:

You gotta love India.

Negociations take so long that the poor negiotator had time to pass away.
Of course by the time his replacement is found and up to speed, elections will come around and the government will change, probably imposing a further review and delay on the whole thing.

Dealing with the Indian government around these kinds of deals has to be the most frustrating thing. Ever.
It would push even John Leahy over the edge of sanity...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9928 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
Of course by the time his replacement is found and up to speed, elections will come around and the government will change, probably imposing a further review and delay on the whole thing.

It helps that there is no AMCA due to come into service say 2020. Without that there is no alternative to Rafale as a medium weight fighter so a new administration would have little choice but to continue negotiations with Dassault. What would there be to review? The insistence that Dassault be responsible for the performance of local enterprises? Now that would change things.


User currently onlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9657 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

And then we have this report.... so in 5 months, we should have a done deal?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...orce-says/articleshow/24303438.cms


User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9955 times:

How does the Rafale compare to the Eurofighter, F-15, F-22, etc? Is this a top-of-the-line product or a second-line aircraft? What are some of the advantages the Rafale may have over its contemporaries?

User currently onlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9916 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 27):
How does the Rafale compare to the Eurofighter, F-15, F-22, etc? Is this a top-of-the-line product or a second-line aircraft? What are some of the advantages the Rafale may have over its contemporaries?

I dont think the Rafale measures up to the F22, simply because its a half a generation earlier and is designed to be smaller/less capable due to a different mission. Also, it was never on the table - the US infact, only offered the F35 after they realised that India wasn't looking at any of their other offerings.The Eurofighter was in the mix till the very end, though.

The final decision depended on a whole host of parameters, incl threat perception, LFC, tech tansfer, no veto clause in the event of hostilities, etc. If the Rafale is meant to take on more imminent Pakistani/Chinese nd the PAK-FA the Chinese stealth, it makes sense. The US is gradually making inroads into the IAF with the C17, Hercules, Apache, Chinook et al, but a frontline multirole fighter a la F35 will perhaps have to wait.


User currently offlineseahawk From Germany, joined May 2005, 1127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9795 times:

F-22 is a different league, but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.

User currently offlineKC135Hydraulics From United States of America, joined Nov 2012, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9691 times:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 29):
F-22 is a different league, but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.

In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?


User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3629 posts, RR: 29
Reply 31, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9670 times:

Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.

User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2085 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9656 times:

Quoting seahawk (Reply 29):
but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.

Eurofighter also made to final round. India is more interested in technology transfer, local assembly and what % of content is subject to sanctions. I think French did better on these terms along with the price.

US has a tendency to bid with F-16s first then try to offer a new generation, not a good strategy.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9391 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter?

I would say versatility. The fact that the Rafale has been succesfully combat proven has helped.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
along with the price.

Oh, that's right. If it's European, especially if it's French, no one would buy it if it wasn't dirt cheap or given away altogether.
I read that on every other thread here on A.net yet I keep forgetting.
 



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4900 posts, RR: 16
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9318 times:

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
US has a tendency to bid with F-16s first then try to offer a new generation, not a good strategy.

  So the US is in a habit of doing this? I did not know that. Also, why bring up the F-16, it was never under consideration. The IAF required a two-engine MMRCA, which the F-16 is not. Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly?


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 705 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 33):
Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter?

I would say versatility. The fact that the Rafale has been succesfully combat proven has helped.

Definitely the most versatile fighter available right now, including a (real) naval variant. It's sad that Canada will not consider this aircraft...


User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2085 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9142 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 34):
Also, why bring up the F-16, it was never under consideration. The IAF required a two-engine MMRCA, which the F-16 is not. Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...Lockheed_Martin_F-16IN_Super_Viper


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12717 posts, RR: 25
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9137 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 33):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
along with the price.

Oh, that's right. If it's European, especially if it's French, no one would buy it if it wasn't dirt cheap or given away altogether.

Not understanding your rant. The finalists were Eurofighter and Rafale, and Rafale was chosen on the basis of price, local manufacture and technology transfer. In this case it was the Eurofighter that was a lot more expensive than the Rafale.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9152 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?

This article does a fairly good job of summarizing the Eurofighter's shortcomings.

"Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country’s wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended “stand-off” capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

These capabilities, apart from the radar, are currently available on the RAF’s Tornado jets and were heavily used by the British in Libya. But their arrival on Typhoon has been delayed by defence cuts."

Proven versus potential is the best way to describe it.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ce-ahead-with-Indian-jet-deal.html


User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9071 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 35):
Definitely the most versatile fighter available right now.

Won't be in 2025 once the RCAF plans to start real operations with a new fighter (F-35). Choosing fighter jets for Air Forces isn't a popularity contest that is won via comments from the internet.


User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 705 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8945 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 39):
Won't be in 2025

Lol! last time, it was 2016...

[Edited 2013-10-21 04:14:44]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8908 times:

From what I understand, the Eurofighter was optimised for air to air combat and other roles (e.g. CAS and bombing) secondary, while the Rafale was designed as an allrounder, for both airforce and naval service, which can hold it´s own in an air to air scrap.

Jan


User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8866 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 40):
Lol! last time, it was 2016

Lol! Operations, not acquisitions.


User currently offlinebilgerat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 221 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 19 hours ago) and read 8729 times:

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?

Basically Rafale is a more mature platform than Typhoon. The French were smart enough to press ahead integrating stuff like full A-G capabilities and AESA on Rafale, whereas the Eurofighter consortium was stuck in the mud for many years due to the nature of the way the aircraft was funded and developed.

Typhoon is finally getting its act together in terms of AESA radar and integrating new A-G weapons, but it might be too late to save the export prospects of the Typhoon.

I think going forward we're going to see a lot more collaboration between the UK and France in developing new equipment.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 44, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7325 times:

When does the 1st Rafale fly in IAF Colours.....


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 705 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7278 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):

When does the 1st Rafale fly in IAF Colours.....

The contract is not signed yet.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 46, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 45):
The contract is not signed yet.

What exactly is the delay.......



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 705 posts, RR: 3
Reply 47, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6691 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 46):
Quoting queb (Reply 45):
The contract is not signed yet.

What exactly is the delay.......

Negociations, bureaucracy, etc

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ndia-defence-idUSBRE99G0OG20131017


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4655 posts, RR: 19
Reply 48, posted (10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6286 times:

Eurofighter is ugly.



Rafale is beautiful, simple as that.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6245 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 48):
Eurofighter is ugly.

In it's basic form it's pretty in its own right, though I agree the Rafale is prettier, such amazing curves. Also, Eurofighter are working hard at ugly-fying their bird, the version offered to UAE with conformal fuel tanks is just hideous.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 47):

If you've ever tried to negotiate anything with the Indian government, you'll know how hard it can get. The bureaucracy there is outstanding & beyond belief. It'll happen, it's just a question of when rather than if. But the "when" can be a long way from now.



Cheers
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4655 posts, RR: 19
Reply 51, posted (10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6220 times:

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 49):

In it's basic form it's pretty in its own right, though I agree the Rafale is prettier, such amazing curves. Also, Eurofighter are working hard at ugly-fying their bird, the version offered to UAE with conformal fuel tanks is just hideous.

It would look OK but for the massive square intakes underneath, I know it's not meant to be stealthy but that can't be great for it's radar signature either.



The Rafale is simply one of the best looking fighters ever made, can't decide if it's prettier than the F16 though..



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2085 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6167 times:

Looks like there is some progress. It appears Dassault got its way to source some parts from Indian private sector. Using only public sector (HAL) was a contentious issue between Dassault and IAF, as HAL is working on too many projects and Dassault cannot guarantee deliveries using HAL.

Quote: "France's Dassault Aviation and Reliance Industries are planning to set up a $200 Million facility near Bangalore to produce wings of Rafale combat aircraft selected by IAF for meeting its requirement of 126 fighter planes."

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ane-wings/articleshow/27184943.cms


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4467 times:

It appears that the Rafale deal is turning into a can of worms with the price of each jet projected to cost DOUBLE of what was bid:

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report...nt-iaf-s-strike-capability-1957107

Quote:
India’s biggest deal of procuring 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore) has hit rough weather. Two years after French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation bagged the deal for its Rafale fighter jets on account of being the lowest bidder, its cost has now shot up by 100 per cent.

In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). A top defence ministry official said the price of a fighter jet made by Dassault could now cost $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore).

The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore),” said an Indian Air Force (IAF) official, who is privy to discussions of the cost negotiation committee.

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. “As the negotiations continue, the cost is spiralling out of hand. It is a major worry,” he said.

An IAF official said that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Ouch. At this rate, Rafale is going to be more expensive than the joint Russian-Indian FGFA.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 54, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

Pity they did not order in 2007.

Not sure when their elections are.

Sounds as if the decision will not be made any time soon.


User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 55, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

I don't really like this plane to be totally honest but this is a huge win for France that they needed. India is a huge country and the anchor-point for South Asia so a 200 plane order is totally reasonable imo but I guess its a question of what they can afford.

Getting back to my other thread though, if India attacks Kashmir, Pakistan or Israel are the French going to keep the spare parts and armaments coming India's way? US support for Iran's air force was withdrawn BEFORE the hostage crisis etc. Its all a pile of metal without support from France, in good times or bad.


User currently onlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3902 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 55):
Getting back to my other thread though, if India attacks Kashmir, Pakistan or Israel are the French going to keep the spare parts and armaments coming India's way?

Strong correction - India has NEVER "attacked" Kashmir; why would we - It's an integral part of our country!!!!!! The then princely state legally acceded to the Indian union shortly after our independence. It's been Pakistan who have "attacked" Kashmir thrice, unsuccessfully, over the decades. PLEASE let's get our facts straight.

Also, during the Kargil War, it was Israel who helped us out with some ammo replenishment, if I'm not mistaken, so I doubt if they'd hold up spares in case of hostilities.


User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 55):
Getting back to my other thread though, if India attacks Kashmir, Pakistan or Israel are the French going to keep the spare parts and armaments coming India's way?

Even if, and it's a big if, we attacked (Pakistan occupied)Kashmir or Pakistan itself, why on earth would we attack Israel? That's just absurd..

Quoting india1 (Reply 56):
Also, during the Kargil War, it was Israel who helped us out with some ammo replenishment, if I'm not mistaken, so I doubt if they'd hold up spares in case of hostilities.

Israelis and the French. Apparently, modifications to the Mirage 2000 fleet were allowed by the French which wasn't part of the original contract with them. Of course, neither of the two would think twice before suspending support if India were to wage a war that's damaging to their interests, but then that's obvious.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 58, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 56):
The then princely state legally acceded to the Indian union shortly after our independence.

Prince Hari Singh made the wrong choice, he made the decision on what was best for him not the 77% muslim majority (1941 British census), that was bound to end in a shooting match, you can't dispute it, now if there had been a plebiscite as there was supposed to be there is no doubt in anyones mind that Kashmir would (in it's entirity) be part of Pakistan today.


User currently onlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3758 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
Prince Hari Singh made the wrong choice, he made the decision on what was best for him not the 77% muslim majority (1941 British census), that was bound to end in a shooting match, you can't dispute it, now if there had been a plebiscite as there was supposed to be there is no doubt in anyones mind that Kashmir would (in it's entirity) be part of Pakistan today.

I dont want to get into politics in a milav thread, but I would think that the Pakistanis then should have exercised more restraint before marching in in 1948 and enabling this. Anyway, are we going to right every perceived wrong and redraw boundaries to the whims and fancies of every new dictator next door? There were many "majority" areas that went to the "wrong" nation when borders were randomly drawn - there was no plebiscite whether the local population wanted to join India or Pakistan. Aren't there many such examples the world over - legacies of not-quite-thought-through decolonisation?

Let's leave it at that by my reiterating the fact that we (India) have NOT invaded Pakistan yet, while they have tried on numerous ocassions. I would not expect you to fully appreciate the vehemence of my assertion, because you lucky New Zealanders do not have neighbours trying to encroach ever so often, nor have been subjected to nuclear sabre rattling or state aided terrorism. God knows, we need these Rafales to augment our defense!

Let's just have a drink to India being what it is (warts and all) and New Zealand being the spectacularly beautiful nation it is (esp if we beat you at cricket tomorrow!!!)

[Edited 2014-01-30 06:36:10]

[Edited 2014-01-30 06:39:01]

User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 56):
Also, during the Kargil War, it was Israel who helped us out with some ammo replenishment, if I'm not mistaken, so I doubt if they'd hold up spares in case of hostilities.

Oh I am just stating a hypothetical. The point I was making is that you have a hard dependency on France now to support those fighter planes. If France bails on you in any confrontation, be it Israel, Pakistan, China, United Kingdom, you are basically in deep elephant dung. Its not just the spare parts its the precision munitions as well unless they are locally produced. I mention Israel only because India did not vote for its creation (abstained) and because its the nation France would most likely pull support from India should India engage with them. As I am sure you know, India has a huge Muslim population and a muslim PM that is not Israel loving is not far fetched.

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 57):
Even if, and it's a big if, we attacked (Pakistan occupied)Kashmir or Pakistan itself, why on earth would we attack Israel? That's just absurd..

See above.

Its the same situation as Argentina fighting the UK over the Falkands Islands. Even if Argentina bought F-18s would the US and our dysfunctional congress support weapons support for Argentina knowing its killing allied airmen? I think not.

In contrast, Russia proved in Syria, that they would support you no matter what. That's why I was saying I'd go Su-30 and go all Russian. Russia is less likely to cut the supply line. See Iran vs. Iraq during the Iraq war. 80 F-14s and 200 F-4/F-5s went down to 50 usable aircraft. It would have been a very different war had the USA supported those planes with parts and munitions.

As a PM, I would just be really hesitant to be dependent on France to determine whether or not I'd be able to engage in a war. Thats essentially what it boils down to.

Same issue with Venezuela where they cannot get US support for their aging F-16s.


User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 60):
I mention Israel only because India did not vote for its creation (abstained) and because its the nation France would most likely pull support from India should India engage with them. As I am sure you know, India has a huge Muslim population and a muslim PM that is not Israel loving is not far fetched.

I agree that India hasn't exactly had a brilliant relationship with in the past, and due to the large muslim population (as well as leftist political parties) even the current relationship is tricky for the government to navigate. Similar to our relationship with Sri Lanka, given our large Tamil population. I just think that it's not gonna happen. Also noteworthy is the fact that in two of our wars with Pakistan in the past, it was the Arabs(and the US) who provided material support to Pakistan. If we're speaking in hypothetical scenarios..

One of the things about Indian politics is that the Union government is made up of a chaotic coalition consisting of a mix of regional and national players pulling in different directions. An Israel-hating Muslim PM is not a far fetched Idea, but said PM being able to pull the country towards attacking Israel is. The rest of the coalition will just keep pulling him back to centre.

Sorry for digressing, let's get back to topic. I agree the Russians are better when it comes to a hands-off approach, but the French are probably still better than the US when it comes to end use verification, based on my opinion of what happened in the Kargil war.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 61):

Sorry for digressing, let's get back to topic. I agree the Russians are better when it comes to a hands-off approach, but the French are probably still better than the US when it comes to end use verification, based on my opinion of what happened in the Kargil war.

Right, that's why I was a little surprised because India has a great relationship with Russia and some squadrons of SU-3X. I probably would have expanded that number instead of Rafale. Plus there is a carrier variant (K model) for potential Naval use.

The other route is you build your own. That's my preferred option actually. I think Turkey saw the writing on the wall when they joined in the JSF Program. NATO fighters are great if your foe is the USSR but in a confrontation with Israel, Egypt or Saudi Arabia the USA might not be reliable with JSF parts and ammo. They might not block aid outright like they did to Iran but they might "delay" weapons and parts in an effort to slow a confrontation down or to bring you to the negotiation table.

Hence Turkey's TFX program for a domestically produced 5th Gen Fighter plane. I think they saw the strategic corner they were in. India tried unsuccessfully to bid for Rafale to locally assemble planes but you really need to be able to manufacture it at will without kits from overseas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFX_%28Turkey%29


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7560 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 59):
or state aided terrorism

In this we have, the French blew up a Greenpeace ship in Auckland, our first and so far only terrorist attack.


User currently offlineWingsFan From India, joined Oct 2009, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

One of the main reason why the US offerings were rejected by India was due to US govt's reluctance to part with the technology used in these planes.
On the other hand France and Russia agreed to full technology transfer which lets India be quiet a bit more self sufficient in terms of maintaining the fleet and to modify hardware to suit evolving needs.

With that in mind I think India made a selection that made sense.

WingsFan


User currently onlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3464 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

@ Solarflyer - BTW did you know Israel is our 2nd largest supplier of defense weapons (after Russia)?
I think we're trying to broadbase now - Russia, Israel, France, the US...


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 66, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 57):
why on earth would we attack Israel? That's just absurd..

It is absurd, but then again so is his obsession with Israel.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 60):
The point I was making is that you have a hard dependency on France now to support those fighter planes

India already has plenty of Russian planes to counter that. In fact, Russian planes so reliable in Indian service they keep falling out of the sky, killing IAF Mig-21 pilots by the busload. This is without anyone even shooting at them, just imagine what would happen if someone did.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 60):
and because its the nation France would most likely pull support from India should India engage with them

France and its Islamic population would be all too happy to see Israel wiped off the map and would be cheering for India all the way in that extremely unlikely scenario. Ironic that France used to be the main weapons supplier to Israel (the country owes its existence today to a certain Monsieur Marcel Dassault) and France's economy would be billions of euros richer every year if Charles de Gaulle hadn't decided to appease his Arab friends instead.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 60):
In contrast, Russia proved in Syria, that they would support you no matter what

Yes, what a ringing endorsement of an ally. "We will keep supporting you even if you gas your own people." Then again, there was a time where the Syrian Air Force was almost single-handedly keeping the Soviet / Russian fighter industry in business, what with their habit of periodically being completely wiped out of the skies in a matter of hours, so maybe that is why.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 60):
That's why I was saying I'd go Su-30 and go all Russian.

So your solution to reduce risk of interruption in your weapons supply chain is to concentrate all your sourcing with one supplier? I hope you don't work as an operational risk manager.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 62):
I think Turkey saw the writing on the wall when they joined in the JSF Program. NATO fighters are great if your foe is the USSR but in a confrontation with Israel, Egypt or Saudi Arabia the USA might not be reliable with JSF parts and ammo.

Turkey would much, much, much more likely be involved in a war with Syria or Iran than any of those countries you mentioned, but of course let's not mention that...



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinemrg From Germany, joined Jul 2013, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 66):
France and its Islamic population would be all too happy to see Israel wiped off the map and would be cheering for India all the way in that extremely unlikely scenario

France has the third largest Jewish after the USA and Israel. A Jew has even been France's Prime Minister.
Your assertion is simply idiotic. No other word for it. Simply idiotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_Jews#Politicians


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 68, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting mrg (Reply 67):
France has the third largest Jewish after the USA and Israel.

Getting smaller by the day as they are persecuted into fleeing to Israel. If you think Jews in France don't have to deal with constant demonstrations of anti-semitism you are sorely mistaken. Just look at the Gang of Barbarians case and Mohamed Merah (among multiple other cases). And the general opinion about Jews in France is widespread and not limited to the (vast) muslim community,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_21st-century_France



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 66):
It is absurd, but then again so is his obsession with Israel.

I don't think so. I don't think there is anything absurd in preparing to fight any potential foe, even some current allys.

Quoting india1 (Reply 65):
I think we're trying to broadbase now - Russia, Israel, France, the US...

Yeah, Japan too.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 66):
So your solution to reduce risk of interruption in your weapons supply chain is to concentrate all your sourcing with one supplier? I hope you don't work as an operational risk manager.

No I don't do operational Risk but you ignored the comment from the Indian gentleman above that said Russia is actually fine with Technology transfer and local production of components. It's moot because as I said I just can't see Russia cutting you off unless you attacked them. Besides, you really think the dependency on France is worse than on Russia?

Even Israel has had the same experience when their F-16 purchases were delayed, but not canceled, due to the Reagan's administration unhappiness over not being notified prior to the Osirak strike.

It might be 10 years before all these Rafales are delivered and another 20 that they are in service so you have to think long term. Does India who they'll be allys with in 30 years? India is kind of under a Western microscope as an emerging democratic superpower which is noticeable (be it gay rights or diplomats). Its only a matter of time before they start using "soft power" to drive some agenda. You don't want your air supremacy affected by that. The Air Force is the single most important military asset a nation has IMO.


User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 69):
It might be 10 years before all these Rafales are delivered
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/bk6...hter-jet-deal-only-under-next.html

Looks like the wait just got longer.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlineDTW2HYD From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 2085 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (8 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2249 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 60):
As a PM, I would just be really hesitant to be dependent on France to determine whether or not I'd be able to engage in a war. Thats essentially what it boils down to.

Only 18 will be built in France, rest will be produced in India thru technology transfer. India will have enough spares and ability produce certain parts on its own. As a standard practice no country accepts military orders once you are in a conflict, most countries won't even fulfill past orders with the exception of Russia.

France is the most self dependent country in terms of military hardware, i.e., % of domestic content.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
South Africa Set To Buy 8 To 14 Airbus A400Ms posted Fri Dec 10 2004 09:57:44 by KEESJE
India To Buy Six C-130Js For Special Forces posted Wed May 30 2007 23:03:21 by DEVILFISH
India To Buy Hawks posted Wed Sep 3 2003 12:46:39 by David_itl
India Seek To Buy 126 Mirage 2000s posted Wed Mar 27 2002 06:04:40 by BarfBag
India To Buy Israeli Phalcons posted Tue Jan 8 2002 13:54:27 by Indianguy
Report: Oman To Buy 12 New Tranche 2 Typhoons posted Sun Nov 13 2011 19:08:25 by art
US Navy To Buy 74 UK Harriers + Engine Spares posted Sun Nov 13 2011 18:37:45 by STT757
UAE Ready To Buy Combat Aircraft From Brazil posted Thu Sep 23 2010 03:26:42 by SandroMag
Indian Air Force To Buy Used 744's posted Sun Nov 22 2009 17:25:48 by Yyz717
Turkey To Buy Super Cobras From The US. posted Sat Oct 31 2009 05:35:08 by TK787

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format