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U.S F-16's And 200 Tanks To Egypt?  
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2608 posts, RR: 22
Posted (1 year 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 7086 times:
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The first batch of F-16s headed to Egypt this week, soon to be followed by more and 200 Tanks are scheduled to be delivered.
This deal was struck between the US and the Mobarak government which is a completely different critter from the current Muslim Brotherhood government. So in light of all the nasty rhetoric coming from the new Egyptian government why are we sending them armament? Do we want to prime a fight between the Egyptians and another Arab country? No, of course not, it must be to prime a fight between the Egyptians and Israel. Or is our current administration here in the US that inept?

Also, it is no secret that the Iranian government is continuing to woo the Egyptians.
So, I just cannot see any good coming from this transfer of military armament.

I do not wish this to become a Egypt vs Israel argument. The topic is between the US and Egypt.
Always good for an opinion, what do you think?


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7411 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 7077 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
So in light of all the nasty rhetoric coming from the new Egyptian government why are we sending them armament?

I'm sure they paid good money for those fighters and tanks, unless you want to give the money back why shouldn't they take delivery?


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 7032 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
I'm sure they paid good money for those fighters and tanks,

The US gives about $1 billion each year to Egypt as military aid. These tanks and F-16s are essentially freebies.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 6999 times:

Do you think that informing them we're an unreliable partner who will cancel agreements on a whim will help the relationship?


Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 6926 times:

Couldn't the US have put some backdoors allowing to disable all that gear if necessary ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1721 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 6837 times:

It's important to maintain relationships with one of the major power brokers in Egypt; the military. It really doesn't matter who's the current leader in Egypt because of the independence the Egyptian military has in internal affairs.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months ago) and read 6794 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
So in light of all the nasty rhetoric coming from the new Egyptian government why are we sending them armament?

Because people pay good money for that stuff.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Do we want to prime a fight between the Egyptians and another Arab country?

Nothing fixes a recession like a war.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Always good for an opinion, what do you think?

Cash or check?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
Couldn't the US have put some backdoors allowing to disable all that gear if necessary ?

I know some equipment (ECM pods I think) has some sort of tracking device and/or a seal.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29800 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

It is Basicly the bribe that the US has been paying Egypt since 1979 to get them to regonize the state of Israel.

The current leadership in Egypt has threatened to disregard those peace accords if the US cancels the aid.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6393 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
It's important to maintain relationships with one of the major power brokers in Egypt; the military. It really doesn't matter who's the current leader in Egypt because of the independence the Egyptian military has in internal affairs.

You're right, I thought about this afterward.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
The current leadership in Egypt has threatened to disregard those peace accords if the US cancels the aid.

Since the government and the military are not on the same page, it would be foolish for Morsi to do that, he would face a coup pretty quickly.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6361 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Or is our current administration here in the US that inept?

Yes. This was brought up last month before the delivery of the first 4 aircraft. The Administration basicly ignored the current concerns and began delivery.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
I'm sure they paid good money for those fighters and tanks, unless you want to give the money back why shouldn't they take delivery?
Quoting Spacepope (Reply 2):
These tanks and F-16s are essentially freebies.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Because people pay good money for that stuff.

The Egyptions paid nothing for the F-16E/Fs and M-1A1. The US Taxpayers paid this entire bill and this is over and above the annual defense aid already given to them.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
The current leadership in Egypt has threatened to disregard those peace accords if the US cancels the aid.

Yes, and that's a major problem for many Americans and for Israel.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
Do you think that informing them we're an unreliable partner who will cancel agreements on a whim will help the relationship?

No, I don't. This agreement for the F-16s and M-1s was made with a totally different government in Egypt than the one who is there today. The original agreement was made in the last year of the Bush Administration, signed during the first year of the Obama Administraion and then approved by Congress. Former Egyption President Mobarak is now in jail, and most likely on his death bed. Current President Morsi has made some very disturbing statements against Israelis, the US, and the EU since he came to power.

I no longer see Egypt as a friend of the US, and we will regrete giving these weapons to Egypt, just as we regreted giving Iran F-14s, F-4s, KC-707s and KC-747s. Iran had actually paid for all those weapons, they were not 'gifts'.

At least we canceled the AWACS sale Iran had made in 1977 after that country changed governments in 1978 and kept the last several F-14As that were going to Iran after they were built, but not yet delivered.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2608 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6299 times:
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Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
Do you think that informing them we're an unreliable partner who will cancel agreements on a whim will help the relationship?

Well I think it's better than arming the enemy, and how does it look that Egyptians are rioting in the street again trying to get that ever elusive democracy and here the Obama administration is backing the Muslim Brotherhood who, BTW has already put the public on notice that Sharia law is going to be applied so goodbye freedoms. Especially freedom of speech.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
eally doesn't matter who's the current leader in Egypt because of the independence the Egyptian military has in internal affairs.


But that's not looking too good as long as the country is in such turmoil. I'd rather bet on a horse.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
I no longer see Egypt as a friend of the US, and we will regrete giving these weapons to Egypt

I completely agree.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6286 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
The Egyptions paid nothing for the F-16E/Fs and M-1A1. The US Taxpayers paid this entire bill and this is over and above the annual defense aid already given to them.

Chalk it up to stimulus then. Money is money.

With any luck the Israelis will get nervous and want some better weapons of their own.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4526 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

I don't see the problem here. A few F16's and tanks are not going to change the balance of power in the region.


And equipment is just that, you can't go up against the Israeli's without a similar level of training and expertise.


The Egyptians don't come close.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineCaryjack From United States of America, joined May 2007, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6222 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
the F-16E/Fs and M-1A1.


How advanced are these weapons? I understand that the F-16s the US sells to say Israel, Canada or the Aussies would be more capable then those sold to other allies.
Thanks,   
Cary


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1721 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6221 times:

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 13):
How advanced are these weapons? I understand that the F-16s the US sells to say Israel, Canada or the Aussies would be more capable then those sold to other allies.
Thanks,
Cary

Egypt isn't equipped with the AIM-120; they are still using the AIM-7. Mind you, a well handled F-16 armed with AIM-7's is still a potent threat.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6179 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
With any luck the Israelis will get nervous and want some better weapons of their own.

Unfortunately Israel doesn't have a friend in the current White House. They can ask all they want, but I doubt they will be getting much of anything in the form of advanced weapons from the US.

Perhaps they can buy some Trance 3 Eurofighters from the EU?


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6082 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
Unfortunately Israel doesn't have a friend in the current White House. They can ask all they want, but I doubt they will be getting much of anything in the form of advanced weapons from the US.

Perhaps they can buy some Trance 3 Eurofighters from the EU?

A former head of Mossad said not too long ago it was always republican administrations which "kicked the chair out" from under Israel not democratic ones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/op...rew-israel-under-the-bus.html?_r=0

And who will pay for these EF2000s? The German taxpayer like for the recent subs?? Or maybe EADS could make the EF2000 the first product out of the Mobile, AL Airbus FAL so the US taxpayer can pay!!


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6046 times:

An opinion piece in the NYT?               

It was Ike, who gave the initial batch of weapons and training to the then new State of Israel in 1951.

It was Nixion who rushed replacement weapons to Israel during the Yom Kippur War in 1973, and put SAC on increased nuclear alert incase the Russians began resupplying

It was Reagan who supplied new weapons during the 1982 war, and continued to supply Israel with M-60 tanks, F-15 and F-16 fighters, gave parts for KC-707 air refueling conversions, and for E-2C AWACS. All after Carter canceled many of these that were offered during Ford.

Bush-41 and Bush-43 both continued to give Israel advanced weapons, including the F-15I and F-16I, PAC-3, HARPOON, AH-64D, AH-1, C-130J, G-550 ELINT, and others. Bush-43 also authorized the IDF to begin evaluating the soon to enter flight testing CH-53K and the F-35.

Meanwhile, Carter stopped almost everything so he could get the Camp David Accords, Clinton and Obama have also canceled, or not requested from Congress authority to sell new weapons, except the F-35I.

But, I'll give you Kennedy and Johnson, both who supported Israel and Johnson who supported the 1967 war. No democrat administration has supported Israel in the last 45 years.


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6020 times:
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It may be in the NYT but it was written by the former head of Mossad who probably knows a whole lot more about the US-Israel relationship and how it has affected Israel than anyone here on a.net!

User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2930 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5995 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
Bush-41 and Bush-43 both continued to give Israel advanced weapons

Give is the operative word here. Israel, like Egypt, didn't pay a cent.

Crediting Nixon and Reagan is disingenuous. It's not like Carter could have sent weapons in 1973. Perhaps the Israelis were just lucky enough to schedule their wars around republican administrations.

And really... crediting Bush for letting the Israelis think about maybe working on the CH-53K and F-35? You should be giving "mega dittos" to President Obama then for letting them actually fly the V-22 last year then.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
Meanwhile, Carter stopped almost everything so he could get the Camp David Accords

Which, by helping to bring Egypt out of the Soviet camp, was more helpful to American interests than any shipment of arms to Israel alone could ever be.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
Perhaps they can buy some Trance 3 Eurofighters from the EU?

Don't let your reflexive distrust of Obama make you lose perspective, the EU is way more tepid toward Israel than any prominent policy maker in the United States.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 3):
Do you think that informing them we're an unreliable partner who will cancel agreements on a whim will help the relationship?

Arming islamists seems like a much better option...   Do Iranian F-14s ring any bells?

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 20):
the EU is way more tepid toward Israel than any prominent policy maker in the United States.

There is (fortunately) no "EU" when it comes to foreign policy. That bunch of faceless bureacrats in Brussels are just a window dressing. There are abyssmal differences when it comes to approach to literally any major issue in foreign policy. There are some countries which tow the shameful EUrabian line (France, Spain, Sweden, Ireland) when it comes to Israel and there are some which do not.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
And equipment is just that, you can't go up against the Israeli's without a similar level of training and expertise.
The Egyptians don't come close.

Do you really want to gamble on that? They had no problem putting camel jockeys in the cockpit of MiGs during the previous wars against Israel and got their asses whipped badly. What makes you think they would not try their luck this time?


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2131 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Also, it is no secret that the Iranian government is continuing to woo the Egyptians.

Ah, but Iran is Shia and Egypt is Sunni . . . an alliance is not in the cards.

As with all things, Middle East politics is much more complicated than any one of us can imagine.

It wouldn't be a surprise to me that these sales are allowed as a kick back for Egypt mediating the recent Palestinian/Israel tit-for-tat. Remember that people were killed!!! Including Israelis Civilians. If this was the case, then to some it would have been worth it.

The 200 tanks is not a major issue . . . you can take them out as they are transported across the Sinai. The F-16 may be more problematic if their range allow them to cross the Sinai. Otherwise restricting them in the Nile Valley would be sufficient to protect Israel. Any movement of these tanks and fighters to the Sinai would deem be provocative an would probably get a major Israel/US response.

Still things are still not settled in Egypt as with the current turmoil between secular and Islamic parties. Democracy is such messy business.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4526 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5420 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):

Do you really want to gamble on that? They had no problem putting camel jockeys in the cockpit of MiGs during the previous wars against Israel and got their asses whipped badly. What makes you think they would not try their luck this time?

Who got their 'asses whipped ?'


You must be referring to the Egyptians so you're just making my point.


Most of the IAF losses were caused by SAM's not Egyptian fighters.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5373 times:

If the US pulls the plug on Egypt, China and Russia will move right in. Basically we will lose all our interests in Egypt and the Suez.


No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
25 bikerthai : Maybe because Egypt now fly mostly Western Aircraft and getting parts to sustain a campaign would be impossible. Yes, and their confidence back then
26 TheCol : I disagree. Both countries wouldn't pass up on the political and strategic opportunities to be had. China and Russia have a history of exchanging mil
27 Post contains images bikerthai : I could be convinced by any recent examples of Russia or China providing tanks or fighter planes free of charge . . . Quantities less than 10 should
28 Post contains links TheCol : It isn't free of charge if you're getting something in exchange. http://www.frontline.org.za/index.ph...tical-social-issues-cat&Itemid=201 http:/
29 Post contains images bikerthai : Just as I thought. Most of the countries noted are paying with oil or mineral rights. As I said. Egypt is in turmoil right now, politically and econo
30 TheCol : Syria has been in worse shape politically, yet, up until now, that hasn't stopped Russia and China from supplying the Syrian military with their hard
31 bikerthai : LOL . . . the difference between Syria and Egypt I think is that Assad had a huge supply of green backs that he can fly to Russia to buy those hardwa
32 Quokkas : What? Personally? No dictator, anywhere in the world, would use his (her) own money to fund the dictatorship: that would rather defeat the object. It
33 bikerthai : True, they make money through the dictatorship. But they would definitely spend the money to: 1) Delay their inevitable down fall (death) long enough
34 Newark727 : It's also worth pointing out that new military hardware for Egypt goes, logically enough, to the Egyptian military, while Muslim extremist sentiment i
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