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Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?  
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 26113 times:

Does anybody which country has the best trained pilots? I'm sure the US, Israel, and some of the Western European countries have relatively the best pilots.

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 25980 times:
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My guess would be British, American, Israeli, Australian, French.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29790 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 25948 times:

The skill of the combat pilot pretty much boils down to training time.

And that list is pretty much the countries that get the most training flight time in and have the access to the ranges, either in their country or in friendly countrys to do that flying in.

I would add Germany and Canada to that list.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 25959 times:

There was a report on 60 Minutes a few years ago and their conclusion was that Israel has the best pilots.


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29790 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 25953 times:

Well Israeli pilots did have the advantage of training in the same environment that they where expected to fight in.

The US I think has really closed that gap in recent years both with training technology and with the large number of real combat operations it has had to take part in recently.

Remember the USAF has been pulling Combat Air Patrols in Saudia Arabia and Turkey for 10 years now on a daily basis, in an actualy threat enviroment.

Needless to say, the USAF must have been picking something up.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 25922 times:

An A4 Israeli pilot told me a long time ago performance scores are being kept of every pilot during the yr.

Eevry year the pilots with the lowest scores are removed from the sqs and replaced by new pilots, regardless of past kills & experience.

Pressure to perform is continuous because of this.

Motivation is high, they have full support of the population, the battlefield is the homeland & they know the IAF cannot withdraw.



User currently offlineFightingfalcon From Switzerland, joined Feb 2001, 787 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 25911 times:

I also heard of the Israelis having the best trained pilots... USAF sure isn't bad either.

The Swiss are quite good in the alps, ever seen photos of the Axalp demonstrations? Go to http://www.swissjet.ch or http://www.steehouwer.com for great pics, not only from Axalp.

Gruess, Martin



Imprezas rule!!
User currently offlineHamfist From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 614 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 25881 times:

The skill of the combat pilot pretty much boils down to training time.

Training time would certainly be an important factor, but the quality and culture of the training environment are probably of equal importance. You can strap into a combat aircraft three times a day every day, but if you're not accomplishing thorough training missions, you're not producing capable pilots.



User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29790 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 25886 times:

True, you aren't going to get much climbing into a cockpit and making engine noises.


That is one of the reasons why I think the US Air Force pilots skills have sharpened significantly since the first Persian Gulf War. They have flown a lot of real world missions and produced the realistic environments that exercises can never provide, no matter how good the simulations are.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13164 posts, RR: 78
Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 25864 times:

I think the RAF must have benefited from almost constant operational deployments since 1991.

Recently, a documentary on RAF Lyneham and their C-130s ops during the recent Gulf conflict had footage of a resupply mission for some US Marines who were well forward.
They were short of water and rations, the two flights were NVG, with minimum illumination and very tactical, as other aircraft had encountered AAA and SAMs in the area.
C-130Js were used, the RAF squadron commander said something surprising, that they were doing it as "other coalition members had shown a marked reluctance".


User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 25863 times:

Well the OSW time since the first gulf war is actually considered bad on a pilot's, Nav's, ABM's, etc skill to a degree, as they never get any air to air training. Eagle drivers are at the worst since there is no air to air threat. The training syllabus for the 15C when they get back to the states is pretty basic to get them back up to 4v4 standards, since they have no practive while overseas. Now Vipers are a different story. F-16CG, and 16CJ get plenty of real world practice in OSW. So it goes both ways so to speak.

Oh my pick for best trained pilots is Belize, The Gambia, and Malta...j/k


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 25874 times:

"Oh my pick for best trained pilots is Belize, The Gambia, and Malta...j/k"

Don't forget to add Haiti to that list  Big thumbs up

I know Canada is up there, partly because of the huge training area they have free reign over. I think the NATO training centre in Moose Jaw has an area close to the size of Western Europe at their disposal. Of course, American, British, German, Italian basically all NATO countries also send their pilots there. I think it's pretty equal within NATO countries in terms of pilot skill.

Kris
YYC



Word
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13164 posts, RR: 78
Reply 12, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 25854 times:

Yes, they've got that Canadian training school up there with Hawks and either T-6As, Tucanos or PC-9s, cannot remember which turboprop trainer out of the three!
But I bet most of their trade is with other NATO members, rather than just Canadian pilots, the RAF send people there.


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 25844 times:

I believe they're PC-9's, Pilatus?

Yeah it's a NATO training base, so they're pilots from all NATO countries there training on a continuous basis.



Word
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 25844 times:

It's the Raytheon CT-156 Harvard II a.k.a T-6A Texan/Harvard II.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineCheshire From Australia, joined Aug 2001, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 25796 times:


If you want some proof of just how good Aussie pilots are, check these out:


http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20010903/avi_stor.htm

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/data/communiques/data/2002Sep12238/index.htm

And just to add another twist to the tale, who's better, USN or USAF? I'd give it to the aviators.....


User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25799 times:

"And just to add another twist to the tale, who's better, USN or USAF? I'd give it to the aviators"

Better at what, and what facet, I've worked with Aussie, RAF, RN, USAF, USMC, USN, Canadian, German, French, Dutch, R.Sing.AFDanish, and Spanish pilots they do different things well. Overall the USAF has the best overall packaged force out there IMO (you may think I'm biased but I am going off of my control of these fighters on to targets at Maple Flag, Red Flag, OIF, OSW, OEF, and ONE) Granted Navy pilots are better at working with AWACS for MC duties and such, but stateside, they blow through airspaces and have many many more HATRs than Air Force or USMC pilots. THe RAF are excellent, and work Low level runs to the money, and Hit the DMPI everytime. The Aussie in OIF did a great job, though did more Air To Air work (which was boring since there was no threat) since we sent the F-15s home.

THe Marines focus their training more or CAS, than Air to Air, though they are more than capable of doing it. The Navy and fleet defence makes their Air-to-air roles sharp, but bomb dropping can get rusty. F-16 CJs can get rusty on Air to Air if they focus on ALQ-99s and not dropping Iron. Therefore I think you need to get more specific, though it can make for fun discussion.


Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pilot

I think the question of who is best, is to broad to be answered without getting into specifics.


User currently offlineSayem55 From Pakistan, joined Jul 2001, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 25600 times:

The number of hours flown/year by a pilot is part of the training
1) The average USAF Pilot: 230 hrs flying time per year
2) The average Pakistani Pilot: 220 hrs flying time per year
.
.
*) The average Isreal Pilot: 180 hrs flying time per year




StarFighter
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 25600 times:

But it depends on the type of training, if you are running
2v2s and 1v1 BFM flights for hours at at time in the daylight, you get no benefit over time.

If you run 4v4s and LFEs at night like Israel and the USA, Britain and Singapore, etc. You get more for less.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate


User currently offlineSayem55 From Pakistan, joined Jul 2001, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 25591 times:

Good point Lt-Awacs
I don't know what kind of training Pak pilots get but, in Pakistan they do have CCA (Combat Commanders' School) Pakistan's "Top Gun".
I found an article that is basically a comparison b/w Pak and Indian pilots but also discuss the training PAF pilots get.
I don't know in detail about the military pilot training so you might want to educate me more on that. All I know up till now is flight hours, ability to make sharp terns and quick manoeuvring with typical WW2 dog-fights in mind.
the link
http://www.pakdirectory.net/Pak-IndiaPilot.asp



StarFighter
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 25593 times:

No hours are important you are right, though type of training is huge also- that is what I am saying. Pakistan flies the hell out of its pilots to counter the Indian threat, and they focus on that kind of training, and they are well trained, no doubt about it. Pakistan is outgunned, and out manned but still flies up well against India. Countries like Israel, USA, UK France etc, use simulators, etc more so than Pakistan, and India. This also makes a difference.

another example was Op Souther Watch, US Pilots got lots of Hours of southern Iraq, with no air-to-air training. They ahd to come home and start from scratch to regain skills.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Lt-AWACS, Yankee Air Pirate


User currently offlineSayem55 From Pakistan, joined Jul 2001, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 12 months 20 hours ago) and read 25599 times:

Thank you Lt-AWACS for explaining it all to me
PAF does not make every thing public and whatever it does, it is hard for me to conclude what kind of training they are getting since I am not aware of the Aviation terms... simply cannot differentiate between good and bad.



StarFighter
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (10 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 25599 times:

The number of hours flown/year by a pilot is part of the training
1) The average USAF Pilot: 230 hrs flying time per year
2) The average Pakistani Pilot: 220 hrs flying time per year
.
.
*) The average Isreal Pilot: 180 hrs flying time per year



average Dutch pilot: 50-60 hours a year
NATO specifies a minimum of I think 125 hours a year, we've been falling short of that for years now.

Part of it is because we have a full squadron in combat operations at all times now (over Yugoslavia and Afghanistan) and they don't get training time at all (and with the size of our airforce a full squadron is a big percentage).
In our airforce combat hours and other airtime (such as demonstration flying and practicing for that) are deducted from the max number of hours you're allowed to fly (which is under 100 a year) so actual training time suffers a lot.

Thank you cost reductions. Accidents are up, proficiency is down.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (10 years 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 25579 times:

Sayem, what's the source for those figures? Is there a list on the web or something?

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSayem55 From Pakistan, joined Jul 2001, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 25561 times:

Here is the source
http://www.pakdirectory.net/Pak-IndiaPilot.asp
They don't have any kind of list, it is just a comparison b/w Indian and Paki pilots. They only reason they listed the USAF and IAF is to give reader an idea whether 220 hrs/year is good or bad. The only other listed flying hours are of the Indians i.e. 130 hrs/year.



StarFighter
25 Post contains images BarfBag : Ok, since someone bothered to drag the IAF into the picture, I'll comment on their capability, but I don't care to garnish it with the usual PAF-vs-IA
26 Post contains images ILOVEA340 : My personal opinion after seeing some of the training they go through is that the Swiss airforce Pilots are among the best trained. Plus those F/A-18'
27 CV990 : Hi! The best pilots are all, only they have to be in their enviroment. Lets see a Israeli pilot might be good fighting in the desert but if he goes t
28 Com3205 : I found this photo of an F15 trying to escape in a break but to late. Why did the F15 close in soo much? Hopefully it was a training flight. Greetz Th
29 Lt-AWACS : that photo could mean anything really. Was it another F-15 taking the photo, was the F-15 without GCI/AWACS? Was the F-15 playing Red Air in a trainin
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