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What If Russia Wanted The F-35?  
User currently offlinerolypolyman From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4756 times:

Could Russia buy the F-35 if there was definitely the political will for them to do so? If not does it boil down simply to technology transfer issues, or would it be because of Western Europe flipping out once they found out about a deal? Obviously Russia has the veneer of a democratic aystem but I'm not reallly clear on where they stand in terms of US national security.

[Edited 2013-02-22 20:10:22]

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4761 times:

Why would they want to?


What the...?
User currently offlinechecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

They could simply just copy the design as they've done before...don't think they'd ever ask for it.

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Quoting checksixx (Reply 2):

By the time the f-35 ever reaches the field in numbers large enough to make any difference, it's current advantages, (tenuous as they are), will have been superseded by countermeasures. The kool-aid drinkers have been conned into believing that the technology from over 10 years ago, (and scheduled to be put into service over 5 years ago), so lauded by champions of the f-35 is an absolute, incapable of being countered.

Any two year old knows that a better mousetrap will always come along. The one thing that is supposed to make the f-35 a deal changer, (it's alleged stealth), is not an absolute; it's a moving target...and it's not moving forward. On the other hand, counter measures are.

Of course, that anyone dare cast dispersions upon the holy grail of cost overruns, will draw cries of outrage from the usual suspects.

It's a turkey on the wrong end of the thanksgiving invitations. Just like the F-22 which went from the planned 750 to 180ish copies, (and still not quite ready for a real war), and the b2, which went from a proposed 132 to a whopping 20 copies, (-1 and also a bit war shy), the f-35 will never be produced in numbers large enough to bring it's price down and the only thing it will ever shoot, is itself in the, (metaphorical), foot.

Iran will have stealth drones doing lazy circles over DC before LockMart, (rhymes with Walmart), stops having to apologise for the f35.

Like the Commanche, the f35 is an answer to a question nobody ever asked. It it likely to suffer the same fate. Stick a fork in it...it's done.



What the...?
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3934 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Quoting checksixx (Reply 2):
They could simply just copy the design as they've done before...

Sigh, that one again... so which combat aircraft did they copy, with the exception of the B-29?

On topic, I'm sure no export permission would be given.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4454 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

We should pay them to take ours away..


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinechecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
and the b2, which went from a proposed 132 to a whopping 20 copies, (-1 and also a bit war shy)

I'm sorry..."war shy"?? So Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya don't count?? I'd love to hear an explanation on that...

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
Sigh, that one again... so which combat aircraft did they copy, with the exception of the B-29?

Sigh...LoL...yup....not gonna even entertain the question as its off topic, but its been discussed plenty.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4446 times:

Quoting rolypolyman (Thread starter):
Could Russia buy the F-35 if there was definitely the political will for them to do so? If not does it boil down simply to technology transfer issues, or would it be because of Western Europe flipping out once they found out about a deal? Obviously Russia has the veneer of a democratic aystem but I'm not reallly clear on where they stand in terms of US national security.

I don't think it would be politically popular in Russia. Look at how people in the U.S. are flipping out by U.S. Astronauts now flying out of Russia on Russian built rockets. If Russia were to buy US built F-35 (that is having a lot of problems) over a Sukhoi or a new Mig type - that would be very unpopular.

Russia did take some U.S. technology and designs in past Soviet era- such as the Li-2 (Russian license built DC-3) and the TU-4 (the B-29) and some similar designs Mig-25 looking like an F-15, the TU-160 looking similar to the B-1... however Russia is building as good of equipment if not better than the U.S. I think the SU-30M is a superior performer to anything that the U.S. has for a conventional fighter. The Sukhoi T-50 is a good rival to the F-22. I am sure Russia already is working on a rival to the F-35 that will probably have less developmental problems.

I don't live in russia and I would be interested in hearing from some Russian people on here - did the T-50 go through a ton of developmental issues like the F-22 and F-35 are here? Or do they keep everything hush hush (sort of like the F-117 was here)? I figure if the Russian government wants to build a jet, it doesn't have to jump through as many hoops.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

Quoting rolypolyman (Thread starter):
or would it be because of Western Europe flipping out once they found out about a deal?

Odds are they'd be apoplectic should a plane they roundly panned succeeds in doing that.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 1):
Why would they want to?

The better for them not to make the same mistakes?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
Any two year old knows that a better mousetrap will always come along.

And the mouse, learning the lesson the hard way, adapts or die  .

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
before LockMart, (rhymes with Walmart), stops having to apologise for the f35.

At least, Sam's lemons are cheap!   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
Iran will have stealth drones doing lazy circles over DC before LockMart, (rhymes with Walmart), stops having to apologise for the f35.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
We should pay them to take ours away..

Speaking of drinking koolaid.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting rolypolyman (Thread starter):
Could Russia buy the F-35 if there was definitely the political will for them to do so?

It would be touchy, so probably not. Either way, I doubt there would be the political will to do so. The Russian government is under pressure to support the domestic defense industry that has struggled mightily in the post-Soviet era. The problem of course, is that said industry has suffered a lot and lost some ground to the west. It sets up a dilemma: buy cheaper, better foreign hardware or pay a lot for domestic industry to catch up.

Really though, the Russian military has a lot of changes they need to make to be prepared for the modern landscape and catch up from the neglect they suffered in the 90s. In fact, since they were built on wartime conscription, they were very officer heavy and, if I'm not mistaken, until fairly recently didn't have any NCOs.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 2):
They could simply just copy the design as they've done before...don't think they'd ever ask for it.

The Russians haven't copied anything in like sixty years. But, if they want to copy the design, I'm sure the Chinese will sell them the blueprints.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
Like the Commanche, the f35 is an answer to a question nobody ever asked

Actually quite the opposite. The F-35 was supposed to be the answer to everybody's questions, and it is...sorta. That's precisely the issue.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 8):
Odds are they'd be apoplectic should a plane they roundly panned succeeds in doing that.

That could be genius. Make money selling planes to Russia, and the rest of Europe has to line up to buy the same planes because they don't want to be left behind. That formula works pretty well in the Middle East.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4003 times:

The F-35 doesn't fit in Russia's ORBAT whatsoever, plus their way of going about things is quite different from that of the US.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 7):
some similar designs Mig-25 looking like an F-15

Its the other way around. The F-15 was designed around what the US thought the MiG-25 design could do.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 7):
did the T-50 go through a ton of developmental issues like the F-22 and F-35 are here?

It has had its shares of issues, mainly structural cracks issues that needed some reinforcement.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 2):
They could simply just copy the design as they've done before...don't think they'd ever ask for it.

Why would they want to copy a design with so many limitations and trade-offs they don't have a need for?.


User currently offlinerolypolyman From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

Thanks all, I am enjoying ths thread. Some first class insights.

I do wonder if given the economic problems in Russia (unless petroleum is offsetting that) that Russian leaders might say "why should we pay for the cost overuns and delays when the US is doing that for us." On the other hand if they are happy with their own defense industry and popular opinion supports it, then that's pretty much all there is to say.

I'm guessing such a F-35 deal would be stricken down by the US senate committees, but I wonder if a $5 billion deal and work for US firms is another story.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Are they still behind in engine tech? They had the thrust but not durability as western engines. Also Russian design is more rugged, less efficient. Look at how the Moscow engineers created a weight problem on the 748, over engineering like the good old days..

User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1693 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
It has had its shares of issues, mainly structural cracks issues that needed some reinforcement.

Though, not as public as the F-35's has been where even a single misstep is blared out and pointed as proof as a failure... which is getting very old fast. For all we know, the T-50 could be suffering some severe development issues of a magnitude that we can only imagine, but they've managed to keep things under wraps a lot better.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
Why would they want to copy a design with so many limitations and trade-offs they don't have a need for?.

Probably going to be more interested in the avionics and sensors than anything else. The West has had a significant edge in that aspect for decades. It's the avionics and sensors that make a mediocre fighter jet into a class leading design.

Quoting sweair (Reply 13):
Also Russian design is more rugged, less efficient.

The Russians have a different way of thinking, some of which is really novel and leading edge, that is borne out of their experience, and know-how. However, sometimes, like everyone else, they come up with real stinkers.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

This will never happen because:

1. There is no military reason for Russia to have an F-35. Russia has no (or potential) enemies, where a very short range stealth bomber with very limited payload would make any significant difference militarily. Who would they need it against?
2. It's not cost effective. The Russians do not have the money, or it would cannibalize other needed weapons. Their budget is far too small.
3. The Russians already have cruise missiles fired from submarines, aircraft and ground installations and other conventional missiles and short and long range bombers to take care of any potential threats that they may have to defend themselves.
4. Military budgets around the world are much more limited than in the USA and would make the F-35 - at it's price and operating costs - unaffordable, even for Russia:

Let's put this in perspective:




User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4819 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):

Sigh, that one again... so which combat aircraft did they copy, with the exception of the B-29?

The F-14/15 was copied for Mig29



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