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Australia To Order 12 F/A-18E/F & 12 EA-18G  
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 684 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7808 times:

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Feb. 27 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia for up to 12 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft and 12 EA-18G Growler aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $3.7 billion.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2013/Australia_13-05.pdf

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting queb (Thread starter):
The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress Feb. 27 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia for up to 12 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft and 12 EA-18G Growler aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $3.7 billion.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...5.pdf

FYI, the Australian decision to purchase will occur later this year. They may elect not to proceed with a Super Hornet purchase at all. The RAAF is on record as being against the additional purchase as they don't want to operate two types of fighter jets. The Australians are just covering their bases and getting the approval now.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7642 times:

The RAAF will do as they are told. This is all wrapped up in the continuing F-35 circus and is perforce highly political.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7409 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):
They may elect not to proceed with a Super Hornet purchase at all.

Clutching at straws aren't you, I'd like to see you try back that statement up.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):
The RAAF is on record as being against the additional purchase as they don't want to operate two types of fighter jets.

The RAAF will operate what the Australian govt tells them to operate, that's how it works in a democracy.

I suspect that the Aussies are going to end up with the Super Hornet and not get the F-35, otherwise why would they want an additional batch of 24, they are more than capable of doing the job the Aussies need them to do.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7384 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
I suspect that the Aussies are going to end up with the Super Hornet and not get the F-35, otherwise why would they want an additional batch of 24, they are more than capable of doing the job the Aussies need them to do.

Not bloody likely. I imagine at best, a purchase with option to return or sell the aircraft to the USN once they get their F-35's.

Politically, both the governing party and the opposition support buying F-35's, and are on record as being supportive. What is more of a concern is a potential gap in coverage between the current Hornet fleet and the introduction of F-35. The Australians will review the situation carefully before committing to additional Super Hornet purchases.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
Clutching at straws aren't you, I'd like to see you try back that statement up.

No, pointing out the real facts. The US DSCA approval notification doesn't always translate into a purchase. Sometimes, there is a notification for approval, but the end user elects not to purchase. The approval is always sought prior to committing to ease the process if a decision is made to go ahead.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7324 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4):
Politically, both the governing party and the opposition support buying F-35's, and are on record as being supportive.

Because they buy into the idea of industrial offsets as part of the purchase, which means jobs in Oz (or Canada or Netherlands, etc). Not necessarily because they believe what's in the brochure, unlike others.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7253 times:

This is not a sale. It is a hedge for the F-35 order.

However, it is no idle threat against the F-35 either. You can get away with this over promising within the USA with the jobs created within the congressional districts and all that. But to a long list of countries with their own sovereign governments, it's different IMHO. Maybe many are waiting till the last moment to just not order them, to protect their jobs in the program?

Because yanking away the industrial offsets and jobs in Australia, Canada, or any other nation - I think is too late to do on a large scale and it will only get more difficult as time goes on.

Many cite the F-16 program as an analogy to the international flavor of the F-35 program - regarding international partners and customers. But I can't remember the F-16 being so out of whack more expensive and delayed nor so under performing, as to what was promised, as the F-35 is. Nor things like all heavy maintenance only done by LM in a centralized maintenance center, unlike the F-16. The F-35 and F-16 programs are very different in important ways.

For Australia and in almost all international partners, the politicians who approved the F-35 program in their countries are no longer there. This means LM will have to sell it again to the current leaders to entice them to order it, in a time of global budget cuts. These countries have not ordered the F-35 yet in any meaningful numbers.

In Australia, Julia Gillard has been Prime Minister only since 2010 and she is from the Labor Party in a coalition with the Green Party. A very liberal coalition. That's why I think the chances of that F-18 order being finalized is pretty good, simply because it is the cheapest option and is good enough. Liberals usually are not worried too much about the military and have other higher priorities - usually.

[Edited 2013-03-02 09:51:32]

User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7214 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
But I can't remember the F-16 being so out of whack more expensive and delayed nor so under performing, as to what was promised, as the F-35 is.

Ahem:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/120/116765.pdf

GAO report on the F-16 programme from 1977. We had F100 engine stalls, lack of a demonstration of an improved aerial restart capability, and excessive taxi speed. The F-16 also need more room for avionics. There were also concerns regarding survivability, and cost increases.

Follow up report in 1978:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/130/122481.pdf

Full rate production was approved, despite more concerns regarding the F100 engine, survivability, and concurrency.

How about the F/A-18?
http://archive.gao.gov/f0102/114371.pdf

A bulkhead failure, high-oil temperature, software development delays, recurring fuel cell leaks, aircraft roll-rate performance, difficult vertical tail installation, an LPT failure.

...and two crashes in a three month period. By 1988 the unit cost increase was 188% of the target.

Do I need to go on?

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
In Australia, Julia Gillard has been Prime Minister only since 2010 and she is from the Labor Party in a coalition with the Green Party. A very liberal coalition. That's why I think the chances of that F-18 order being finalized is pretty good, simply because it is the cheapest option and is good enough. Liberals usually are not worried too much about the military and have other higher priorities - usually.

Not a finalization. The decision to proceed for Australia with more Super Hornets is later this year:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...er-australia-idUKBRE91P02F20130226

Quote:
"No decision has been made, no judgment has been made," Smith told reporters at the opening of the Australian International Airshow in southern Victoria state.

"We'll make that decision in the course of this year, I expect by the middle of this year," he said. "But one thing I won't allow to occur is a gap in our air combat capability."

The Australians have made it clear that more Super Hornets will be a gap filler in case of any capability gaps caused by any potential delays between introduction of the F-35 and the retirement of the regular Hornets. The Australians will review the situation, determine if they can manage the risks, consult with the US on the status of the F-35 programme, and see if they can keep their Hornet fleet operational until F-35 enters service. If the Australians determine that they can manage the risks without an additional Super Hornet purchase, they will not purchase more Super Hornets.

And FYI, the Australians are coming up to a election year, and the Conservatives are expected to win. But F-35 procurement has bi-partisan support:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ustraliagovt-idUSBRE91R08820130228


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7189 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...er-australia-idUKBRE91P02F20130226

Did you miss the following sentances in the article you quoted?

Quote:
Smith said Australia is committed to the purchase of an initial two F-35s, but the timing of options for a further 12 and an initial plan to buy a total of 100 remains unclear.

Smith noted the Australian government's decision last year to purchase 12 EA-18G Growlers with radar-jamming electronic weapons that are compatible with the Super Hornet.

"Just as the United States is now effectively operating on a mixed fleet to 2030/35 of Super Hornets, Growlers and F-35s, that potential is there for Australia as well," he said.

In another Reuters article it talks of cutting the order for 100 to 50-70 aircraft, that pretty much puts the F-35 on the slippery slope if you ask me.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...er-australia-idUKL4N0BS1JF20130301

Quote:
But defence analysts predict Australia might end up buying only 50 to 70 of the fighters given Canberra is expected to decide in June to double its fleet of Super Hornets to prevent a frontline gap until the F-35 is delivered later in the decade.

The cost of picking up the extra Super Hornets will almost certainly force Australia to cut its F-35 purchases, defense analysts say.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7158 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 8):
n another Reuters article it talks of cutting the order for 100 to 50-70 aircraft, that pretty much puts the F-35 on the slippery slope if you ask me.

However, another states that an option is that the Australians buy 100 aircraft as planned, but over a longer period of time or in batches. Who knows, it will depend on the upcoming review due to be complete this year. We will just have to wait and see.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7119 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 9):
However, another states that an option is that the Australians buy 100 aircraft as planned, but over a longer period of time or in batches. Who knows, it will depend on the upcoming review due to be complete this year. We will just have to wait and see.

You're forgetting that this is not a popular purchase with the Australian people, it's somewhat of a political hot potato, both main parties have said they support it, however if one one party can score points over the other by scaling down the purchase (almost a dead cert) or cancelling it they will.

I also suggest you read this interview with the Australian Defence Minister Stephen Smith

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2...ina-carvalho-abc-news-breakfast-2/


User currently offlineSCAT15F From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 402 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

Super Hornet. Boy, talk about an aircraft with compromised performance. The RAAF would be better off buying the USAF F-111F's sitting in mothballs and waiting for the F-35. The F-35A and F-111F would make a great combo for the RAAF...

User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4837 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7096 times:

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 11):
The RAAF would be better off buying the USAF F-111F's sitting in mothballs and waiting for the F-35.

They had recently, buried theirs quite dramatically...    ...

http://resources2.news.com.au/images...1570-f111s-dumped-near-ipswich.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7057 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
By 1988 the unit cost increase was 188% of the target.

From the GAO report you linked on the F-18 program:

The Navy's baseline estimate, established in fiscal year
1975, was $12.9 billion. The rise in estimated costs over
the baseline estimate to the $29.7 billion and $41 billion
estimates are attributable to (1) an increase in procurement
quantity, including changes in attack, reconnaissance, and
trainer requirements, (2) inflation, including adjustments for
inflation for the baseline quantity and inflation associated
with the added production aircraft, and (3) other cost growth.
Related to these three factors, the $28.1 billion increase to
arrive at the $41 billion estimate consists of $3.9 billion
(14 percent) for quantity changes, $18.2 billion (65 percent)
for inflation, and $6 billion (21 percent) for other cost
growth.


In fiscal year 1979, tyhe Navy increased the procurement
quantity from 811 to 1,377 aircraft and increased the
program cost estimate by $8.6 billion. Approximately
$3.9 billion of the increase was attributed to the procurement
of the 566 additional aircraft, associated program changes,
land additional support costs. Projected inflation associated
with the added production aircraft and inflation adjustments
for the baseline estimate accounted for the remaining $4.7 billion.


The bulk in the cost increase was due to inflation, which was through the roof over several years in that period, and additional planes from what was planned in the baseline.

Today, the F-18 costs less than 70 million with engines and avionics. The $150 million price tag the Australians are paying includes all sorts of spares, spare engines, spare radars, training, logistical support, pods, and weapons carried. If Australia buys the 24 F-18s, it would at the very least mean a reduction in F-35 buys, unless they increase their defense budget considerably, which I can't imagine they would do.

[Edited 2013-03-02 17:40:36]

User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7002 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 13):
The $150 million price tag the Australians are paying includes all sorts of spares, spare engines, spare radars, training, logistical support, pods, and weapons carried.

So pretty much what any Air Force would need to operate Super Hornets, unless they are planning buying static displays. $150m a piece for an aircraft designed in the 90's is brutal, I guess they must be really desperate for fighters if they are settling with Boeing military products.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4837 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6983 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 14):
$150m a piece for an aircraft designed in the 90's is brutal, I guess they must be really desperate for fighters if they are settling with Boeing military products.

If that's what they're doing, then by all means keep the Growlers, but switch the rest to this at least...  

.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...boeings-upgraded-f-15e-strike.html

Quote:
"Boeing had a very small presence at the Air Force Association's Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando. But the company did bring this model of an upgraded F-15E Strike Eagle to the show.

Most immediately noticeable is that the aircraft has its two outer-wing weapons stations activated (which the F-15 always had, but aren't normally used)"



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6960 times:

That F-15 isn't going very far with those bombs and no external tanks, however I'd still rather have that over the SH.

User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1719 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6870 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
You're forgetting that this is not a popular purchase with the Australian people, it's somewhat of a political hot potato, both main parties have said they support it, however if one one party can score points over the other by scaling down the purchase (almost a dead cert) or cancelling it they will.

I also suggest you read this interview with the Australian Defence Minister Stephen Smith

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2...st-2/

Instead of conjecture, let's actually read what the Australian MOD has worked out. I would suggest you read the Defence Capability Plan, specifically about AIR 6000:

http://www.defence.gov.au/publications/CapabilityPlan2012.pdf

Quote:
AIR COMBAT | AIR 6000
Background
"AIR 6000 will deliver a New Air Combat Capability (NACC) comprising around 100 Conventional Take Off & Landing (CTOL) F-35A Joint Strike Fighters (JSF) and all necessary support, infrastructure and integration to form four operational squadrons and a training squadron.

Australia joined the System Development and Demonstration phase of the JSF Program in October 2002 and through AIR 6000 Phase 1B (approved), undertook a program of detailed definition and analysis activities leading up to Government Second Pass (acquisition) approval for Phase 2A/2B Stage 1, in November 2009.

Phase 2A/2B will acquire no fewer than 72 F-35A to form three operational squadrons and a training squadron, with first deliveries in 2014. Stage 1 (approved) will acquire 14 F-35A and associated support and enabling elements necessary to establish the initial training capability in the US and to allow conduct of Operational Test in the US and Australia. Stage 2 (unapproved) plans to acquire the remaining (at least) 58 F-35A and support and enabling elements, bringing the total to 72 aircraft. Stage 2 is planned for approval in 2014-15.

Australia’s first JSF will remain in the US for a number of years for initial conversion training of Australian pilots and maintainers, and also participation in operational test activities. Australia’s initial JSF are planned to commence arriving in Australia in 2018. They will commence dedicated Australian operational test activities, primarily to ensure effective integration with other ADF air and ground systems.

Phase 2C (unapproved) is the planned acquisition of a fourth operational JSF squadron to bring the total number of aircraft to around 100. The decision to acquire the fourth operational JSF squadron will be considered in conjunction with a decision on the withdrawal of the Super Hornet. A decision on this final batch of JSF is not expected before 2015.

The Australians are buying their F-35's in waves, with the first wave already approved for one squadron. Phase 2 approval is set in 2014-15 for the 2nd and 3rd squadrons of F-35's, and they anticipate that they will review the situation for a 4th squadron after 2015, in conjunction with the retirement of the Super Hornets.

You are right, the Australians haven't fully committed, but based upon the Australian MOD's plans, it is their intention on how they want to purchase.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6867 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17):
Instead of conjecture, let's actually read what the Australian MOD has worked out. I would suggest you read the Defence Capability Plan, specifically about AIR 6000:

That was published in May 2012, it's now March 2013, plans change, surely you understand that? When that paper was published the Aussie govt weren't thinking about ordering 24 more Super Hornets either, plans change remember.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6785 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17):
I also suggest you read this interview with the Australian Defence Minister Stephen Smith

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2...st-2/

Uhhh, "page not found" (at least by clicking on your link)

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17):
The Australians are buying their F-35's in waves, with the first wave already approved for one squadron. Phase 2 approval is set in 2014-15 for the 2nd and 3rd squadrons of F-35's, and they anticipate that they will review the situation for a 4th squadron after 2015, in conjunction with the retirement of the Super Hornets.

You are right, the Australians haven't fully committed, but based upon the Australian MOD's plans, it is their intention on how they want to purchase.

AFAIK, only 2 have actually been purchased, to remain as indicated in the US for training. The remaining 12 of the "training 14" I believe are still unfunded -- because like the US, Oz is a little short on cash, and large cuts to the defense budget are coming. When AIR6000 was published, Australia was an economic wunderkind, mainly based on selling coal and uranium and other primary resources when prices were high. That's not the case now, so at a minimum, any F-35 purchase will be much smaller.

MOD can huff and puff and have an "intent to purchase", but major acquisitions require ministerial and cabinet approval, just as they do in Canada. Which is also going to take a big whack at the defense budget. So whether you're talking about 100 or 65 F-35As, good luck with that.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6783 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 18):
That was published in May 2012, it's now March 2013, plans change, surely you understand that?

Plans do change. Sometimes.

http://www.4-traders.com/LOCKHEED-MA...-35-s-future-16369269/?countview=0

Quote:
Australia's conservative opposition, which is expected to win elections in September, said on Thursday it supported Lockheed Martin's troubled F-35 to be the country's next frontline warplane, despite problems and huge cost blowouts.

So what is the real deal down under?


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7382 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6772 times:

Yet that same article also said

Quote:
Defense analysts predict Australia might end up buying between 50 and 70 of the fighters instead of 100, although Canberra could also buy the full number but over a longer timeframe beyond 2020, depending on a budget recovery.

If they end up with 48 Superhornets you can bet on it that they won't buy 100 F35's.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6758 times:

To be more specific, Australia's opposition parties are Liberal center-right parties.

FYI, Australia is governed by a center-left coalition between the Greens and Labor and a few independents, not just the Labor party alone. Even if the Liberal Party and the Liberal National Party of Queensland win more seats than the Labor party alone, they still have to have more seats than the entire center-left coalition coalition for Tony Abbott's center-right coalition to govern. Beating the Labor party alone would not be enough to displace Julia Gillard as Prime Minister.

And where is the polling at?

“The coalition is still on target to win the election comfortably,” said Zareh Ghazarian, a lecturer at the School of Political and Social Inquiry at Melbourne’s Monash University.
- That is the current center-left ruling coalition of Julia Gillard.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...l-of-australian-election-year.html

Center-Right supporters, very often seem to think they are going to win, even when there is no data to support that confidence.

Looking forward, if Julia Gillard prevails, will Australia order any more F-35s beyond the 2 it has already ordered? Or finalize the F-18 order and and be done with it? With Australia's economy faltering, even Tony Abbott is saying things like:

“A government which can’t get its own spending under control can’t deliver the kind of strong economic management that is necessary if we’re to have strong jobs growth,” Abbott told reporters in Sydney today.

Doesn't this mean defense cuts?

And how much at risk are F-35 jobs if Australia orders none? I am sure that could be argues all day long. I think a restructuring of F-35 subcontractors would hurt the program even more than it already is. Just one exanple:

Chemring Australia, a unit of British-based Chemring Group Ltd, which is manufacturing air-launched expendable countermeasure flares for the F-35, has invested A$35 million in a facility outside Melbourne to produce the flares. The JFS has a contract with Chemring, a breach of which would cost the JSF program and then they'd have to find someone else to build a factory to produce these flares. Talk about more delays and more expenses.

I am sure the same is true around the world. Suppliers just can't be exchanged at this stage without creating massive disruptions and delays and higher expenses. The JSF program, in that sense, can only bark but not bite.

[Edited 2013-03-03 11:56:49]

[Edited 2013-03-03 11:59:13]

[Edited 2013-03-03 12:13:33]

User currently onlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3553 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6743 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 20):
Australia's conservative opposition, which is expected to win elections in September,

Like the Republicans were supposed to win here last fall. Never count your chickens......


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6734 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 22):
Center-Right supporters, very often seem to think they are going to win, even when there is no data to support that confidence.

Like the GOP party boys...Kanban, you beat me to it !   



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
25 Post contains images Powerslide : I don't ever recall hearing that. Doesn't matter who wins, US still loses. There haven't been mass cullings of F35 orders just yet so lets not get al
26 Acheron : As if the performance of the F-35 isn't compromised as well.
27 Post contains images SCAT15F : Oh, I'm not saying it isn't, just not as much...
28 Post contains links Ozair : Tommy, your assessment of Australian politics is 100% wrong. The Coalition is the Liberal/Nationals and "at this time" are expected to win government
29 Post contains links and images Devilfish : 750 gal CFTs mount ordnance on short pylons..... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...-side-v1-thumb-560x1627-173531.jpg For missions farther out,
30 tommytoyz : You are restating what I said, regarding the center-right coalition. It is made up of the Liberals and the LNP (Liberal Nationals Party of Queensland
31 Post contains links Ozair : No Tommy I am not. What I quoted from you was the following, You linked the Coalition in the article stated as being Labor and the Greens, which it m
32 tommytoyz : Thanks for that. and the clarifications. I am no expert on Australian politics. However, as you said, 6 months is an eternity. If Abbott comes to pow
33 legs : I suspect that no one from either side of politics will commit to the full 100 airframe buy, even well after the election. Scuttlebutt at work says t
34 Ozair : Agree, and there certainly isn't a need to. Considering we will get a new white paper this year, and then if the Libs are elected, another 18 months
35 legs : Not off the top of my head. Staged withdrawal from about 2015 for a few years rings a bell, but I'd have to double check tomorrow.
36 ThePointblank : Considering that the original time frames as of the current defence plans were to make a decision to purchase the 2nd and 3rd squadrons of F-35's som
37 stealthz : Perhaps but might be partly because of the snake oil sales pitch about the F-35 capability and delivery timeframe.
38 ThePointblank : No, it's pure penny pinching on the part of the Australians. The Canadians heard the same pitch regarding F-35, and we have elected to upgrade 40 CF-
39 bikerthai : To be fair, the Australia are that much closer to The Spratleys than Canada. And if things go hot, they will will have to bear the burden a little lo
40 kiwirob : Clearly the current defence plan is not being adhered to, they haven't purchased the second batch of 12 yet. So what leads you to believe the rest of
41 ThePointblank : Stage 1 already has approval for 14 F-35's. It's stage 2, which will acquire at least 58 F-35's that hasn't received approval, because its due for a
42 kiwirob : But they have only ordered 2. The Aussie govt haven't even placed an order for the deferred 12, how can they be deferred if they haven't even placed
43 Post contains links ThePointblank : They have; the original order was for 14, signed off in 2009: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...hters/story-e6frg8yo-1225803790418 12 were defer
44 tommytoyz : They have not ordered 14. The Prime Minister and Defence Minister Stephen Smith confirmed they would delay the purchase of 12 multi-role Joint Strike
45 Post contains links ThePointblank : Read the first link: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...hters/story-e6frg8yo-1225803790418 14 F-35's were ordered. 12 were delayed.
46 Post contains links kiwirob : So who are you going to believe The Australia newspaper or the Australia Defense Minister Stephen Smith, who very clearly said on the 21/02/13 the fo
47 tommytoyz : I did. Nothing in that article says 14 were ordered. Nothing. With elections coming up in September and the economy ailing and everyone talking about
48 Post contains links tommytoyz : http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opin...uture/story-e6frg76f-1226588701874 Very pro F-35 article that throws the kitchen sink at supporting the F35 in
49 Powerslide : Why did they bother ordering the Super Hornets in the first place?
50 tommytoyz : Good question: Australia has no military enemies, nor does it have an squabbles with anyone. I has 3 neighbors, all of which are separated by quite a
51 Post contains images kiwirob : Nice to see you don't have an answer to Stephen Smiths statement that Australia has only ordered 2 F-35's So I hope you agree only 2 are on order, no
52 Post contains links ThePointblank : Somehow, the Australian MOD, and the previous PM disagree; they have 14 approved: Also, this Australian MOD press announcement says 14 F-35's: http:/
53 Post contains images bikerthai : The intrusion of the Chinese into the Spratley (oil reserve) brings them into the Australian sphere of influence. Or so I was told. One of the reason
54 kiwirob : Ok do you not understand the difference difference between approving something and actually ordering something, the Australian defense ministe rjust
55 tommytoyz : With blind F-35 support, I doubt such a distinction matters so some here, any more that the press release quoted was from 2009. Apparently some live
56 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Indeed...particularly when they start saying things like these... ... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...pares-j-15-to-fa-18-hornet-383100/ Quote
57 LMP737 : I think we all know which one would be easier to maintain and support.[Edited 2013-03-06 11:49:42][Edited 2013-03-06 11:53:45]
58 tommytoyz : Specifically, what interests are you referring to? I have yet to hear any specifics from F-35 supporters, despite asking this several times. Not on t
59 Post contains links Devilfish : Those informing the scope of this review..... http://www.defence.gov.au/oscdf/adf-posture-review/
60 Post contains links tommytoyz : http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/asd_09_12_2012_p04-01-494206.xml Incorporation is planned for 2014, beginning with production Lot 37. So far
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