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Video Of Syrian Copter Being Shot Down  
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4475 posts, RR: 12
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6902 times:

From a Turkish newspaper site;
Syrian helicopter being shot down by the opposition.
http://webtv.hurriyet.com.tr/2/46141...onunde-helikopteri-dusurduler.aspx

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6305 times:

I've seen that video; the missile used is a Chinese FN-6 MANPAD. Very unusual, as the Syrian Army isn't known to possess this weapon. The nearest users that does use this missile is Sudan and Pakistan. And this is a complete weapon system, including the critical launch unit. I wonder how this weapon got into Syria in the first place...

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6283 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):
I've seen that video; the missile used is a Chinese FN-6 MANPAD. Very unusual, as the Syrian Army isn't known to possess this weapon. The nearest users that does use this missile is Sudan and Pakistan. And this is a complete weapon system, including the critical launch unit. I wonder how this weapon got into Syria in the first place...

I was going to ask what the system was.
Most likely captured it from the Syrian Army, given how many bases the rebels have taken.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 2):

I was going to ask what the system was.
Most likely captured it from the Syrian Army, given how many bases the rebels have taken.

The problem is that the Syrians are not known users of the FN-6 MANPAD. The known inventory of MANPAD's in the Syrian Army is primarily Russian and Soviet Igla and Strela missiles. The weapon very likely came from somewhere else.


User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6230 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 3):
Quoting GDB (Reply 2):

I was going to ask what the system was.
Most likely captured it from the Syrian Army, given how many bases the rebels have taken.

The problem is that the Syrians are not known users of the FN-6 MANPAD. The known inventory of MANPAD's in the Syrian Army is primarily Russian and Soviet Igla and Strela missiles. The weapon very likely came from somewhere else.

They have been buying (or been provided with) a lot of armaments from a variety of sources. Seems they have found some backers from the east... a lot of people have an interest in what is going on in the middle east.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):

Terrorists find ways to get weapons from place to place. It is one of their specialties.

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):

you mean "shot down by terrorists" right?



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5980 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 3):
The problem is that the Syrians are not known users of the FN-6 MANPAD. The known inventory of MANPAD's in the Syrian Army is primarily Russian and Soviet Igla and Strela missiles.

I would suspect we don't have anything like a decent idea of the full inventory of the Syrians, probably do on older well established systems, as stated they've likely been more diverse in their shopping in more recent years.

Or maybe this is actually from Qatar (?) being brought through an intermediary.
Has a precedent, before the famous US gifts of Stinger missiles to the Afghan rebels in the mid 1980's, the CIA initially only sent them Eastern Bloc weapons, including SA-7's. Prior to Stingers finally being approved by the US Government later on.
As well as British Blowpipe MANPADS, but these command guided missiles needed highly trained personnel to use them with any success, the Javelin (not to be confused with the newer US anti tank system), easier to operate and developed after the difficulties Blowpipe had in the Falklands, were never supplied to the Afghans however.


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

For what it's worth, Iran was shipping Chinese MANPADs to Yemen recently:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/wo...over-iran.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5891 times:

I guess I can put down "fluent in Arabic" on my CV now because I understood every single word in that video. Pretty sad to see such an ancient language reduced to three words.

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5656 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 5):
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):

Terrorists find ways to get weapons from place to place. It is one of their specialties.

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):

you mean "shot down by terrorists" right?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2345 posts, RR: 38
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5540 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

True. We Americans (with help from the French I might add, not many people remember that, thanks!) were terrorists at one point.

All I see in this video is a bunch of idiots getting lucky. Shot down a chopper then stood around with a clear trail to their location shouting praises in arabic so the nearest opposition can shoot you. You just shot down a guy who is probably of the same religion (maybe even fellow sunni or whatever they are). Im not for or against the rebels or the president, just making a tactical observation.



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5399 times:

Well it illustrates that on one hand you have a trained military, not on the other. A trained military that has no qualms about flattening its own cities full of people, if that's not terrorism I'm not sure what is.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):

Islamic terrorists that use the civilian population as a cover. The same they have done in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Libya...long list here.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4003 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
Islamic terrorists

They have joined the fray, but not the whole anti-Assad party, to put it very neutrally, is like them.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2195 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting atct (Reply 10):
at one point.

All I see in this video is a bunch of idiots getting lucky. Shot down a chopper then stood around with a clear trail to their location shouting praises in arabic so the nearest opposition can shoot you.
Quoting atct (Reply 10):
Im not for or against the rebels or the president, just making a tactical observation.

1) Luck is so much part of war . . . so being lucky for staying alive is nothing new.
2) So what is the Syrian army going to do about it? Send in another chopper and risk getting another one shot down? They don't have the same CAP support the US army is used to.
3) Send a salvo of artillery at the point of origin of the smoke trail? Don't think they will be actuate enough, better to save your ammo for hitting big buildings.

I for on won't criticize these particular guys . . . Islamist or not, their life expectancy will be much lower than mine. They have my sympathy on that point alone.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
Islamic terrorists that use the civilian population as a cover.

And so did the French resistance . . . And the North Vietnamese placed their SAMs near hospitals.

You hide behind civilian long enough to build up your forces. If and when you have enough forces to face your enemy on the open field of battle, you become a liberator  

Heck, the British thought it was so uncivilized for the colonist to be shooting from behind trees and wearing clothing that blend in with the forest!

bt

[Edited 2013-03-11 07:00:39]

[Edited 2013-03-11 07:00:52]


Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5213 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
slamic terrorists that use the civilian population as a cover. The same they have done in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Libya...long list here.

While it's likely that there are Islamist elements, (of course they'd try to exploit a situation like Syria), most are not.
Most are just sick of the Assad clans decades of utter brutality, armed and funded I might add by Russia.
Well Syria has in recent years been in bed with Iran, both have a history of sheltering, funding, approving, even launching terrorist attacks including by Islamists.
So in helping Syria, to an extent Iran too, Russia is in fact helping the very thing it says it fears of the anti Assad forces.
Surely concern about Islamists unite Russia and the West?
Seems a big risk to take for some run down naval base in Syria.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2195 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):

Islamic terrorists

I wish that there are respected A-netters here more knowledgeable in Islam so as to enlighten us on this aspect.

But until then I just want to say it irks me to hear the "Islamic terrorists" or some in the USA like to say "Islamo Fascism" bantering about. It just tells me that these folks refuse to understand the intricacies of the world.

Let's not call the Islamic Fighters in Syria as Islamic Terrorists unless a context comes with the statement.

Consider that Assad's forces are also Islamic (Shia) and also very brutal against civilian (see the UN report on pro Assad Militia), you can in theory put the same "Islamic terrorist" label on both sides.

Sorry about my rant . . . delete this post if necessary. But I just don't want "inflamatory" words to go unanswered.

Hate the planes . . . don't hate the people.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1255 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4803 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
While it's likely that there are Islamist elements, (of course they'd try to exploit a situation like Syria), most are not.
Most are just sick of the Assad clans decades of utter brutality, armed and funded I might add by Russia.
Well Syria has in recent years been in bed with Iran, both have a history of sheltering, funding, approving, even launching terrorist attacks including by Islamists.
So in helping Syria, to an extent Iran too, Russia is in fact helping the very thing it says it fears of the anti Assad forces.
Surely concern about Islamists unite Russia and the West?
Seems a big risk to take for some run down naval base in Syria.

We are not necessarily interfering in the situation and are not asking for direct foreign involvement like the west is.
Must I remind you what happened the last time the west interfered in the internal affairs of another country? Libya, for instance? Do you really expect us to go along with another "no-fly zone" like that again after the mess you created there?
I'm sorry, but if there was some way to stop this conflict from snowballing and you wanted us to maybe work with you, you should have thought of that BEFORE the west blatantly violated the Security Council resolution and directly sided with the "opposition". Remember how that ended? Besides turning a conflict into a full blown civil war with thousands of casualties, you now have a breeding ground for radicals...oh, and a dead Consul.
And now you are pushing the same short-sighted agenda in Syria. Great idea. How many times do you have to step on the rake that will hit you in the face and get bitten in the ass before the west realises that shortsighted interference in a sovreign country's internal affairs is not good.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

While the situation in Libya is far from great, it's still an improvement over Qaddafi.
Russia never had any terrorist attacks sponsored by his regime, so perhaps that clouds their view of him. Though I note that even the USSR got wary of Gaddifi prior to the end of the Cold War.
Given Russia's revolutionary history, they should know that these sorts of events do not end neatly and unrest carries on, sometimes for years after the regime is toppled/dictator killed or in exile.

These uprising are happening anyway, they began in region with no influence from the West, everyone was taken by surprise by them, the regimes under sttack, the rest of the Arab world, Bin Laden and his merry men, both the West and Russia.

You can either cross your fingers and just hope that Islamists don't prevail, or try and assist the non Islamist forces to both win the battles and come out stronger than the Islamists.
The UK and France are training non Islamist Syrian rebels in Jordan.
A difficult balancing act, a risk, but as I said, these uprising started entirely in the countries affected.

It's often forgotten now, but the uprising that ended the rule of the Shah of Iran was not an Islamist led one, they were involved, but so too were Iranian Communists, other anti Shah nationalists - including parts of the army, those seeking autonomy in some parts of Iran (they were the ones who held the London Embassy Of Iran hostage in 1980, before they started killing hostages and the SAS ended the seige).

But in the chaos just after the Shah fled, the Islmists under Khomeini won out - immediately purging the rest of the anti Shah opposition - which in turn led to those seeking autony to take action againt the London Iranian embassy.
There was no way for the West, nor the USSR, to influence the situation, in the case of Iran it would have been unlikely to succed and in the Cold War, way too risky.

Like the Arab Spring, that rebellion seemingly sprung from nowhere, no one saw it coming, even the large CIA network in Tehran in 1978/79 had no inkling of the pressures in the country about to boil over.
The parallels are strong with now, consider how more stable things would have been since 1979 had say more moderate or even non Islamist elements had prevailed in Iran.
Many now see the Islamist victory there as the start of the wave of Ismamist terrorism that had so plagued us, including Russia, since.
It inspired them.

Sorry, I just don't buy your simplistic ideas about the events in Syria, Russia is also culpable, for it's support of the murderous Assad clan, who remember slaughtered 20,000 of his own people in 1982 to quell a previous uprising, there probably were nowhere near that many islamists in the country then.
But the pressures still keep building up, in Syria's case the uprising was inspired by events in Tunisia and Libya.

Up to now, the only outside elements supplying arms to Syria, to Assad that is, has been Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies. That is not good company to keep, it renders charges against the West 'interfering' laughable.

Perhaps if it had been an airliner flying out of Moscow meant to explode over that capital city, as the Syrian Intelligence service attempted with an El Al airliner out of LHR ,which it's planned route would have had it destroyed over London, back in 1986, Russia might not have been so supportive of Assad.
(A Syrian agent seduced a young Irish woman, getting her to fly, unknown to her, with a bomb in her luggage, luckily security detected the device. That Syrian agent is still in a British prison).

You will recall that other Islamists have succeeded in blowing up airliners over Russia in the past few years, not Syrian sponsored but perhaps you can see why the Syrian regime is not looked well upon here.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
Up to now, the only outside elements supplying arms to Syria, to Assad that is, has been Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and other Iranian proxies. That is not good company to keep, it renders charges against the West 'interfering' laughable.

The Russians are kidding themselves if they think they are some kind of neutral third party in all of this.

Quoting GDB (Reply 18):
even the large CIA network in Tehran in 1978/79 had no inkling of the pressures in the country about to boil over.

By the time of the revolution te CIA had pretty such sub-contracted it's human intel in Iran to the SAVAK. The problem was like most intelligence services serving an absolute ruler the SAVAK was geared towards telling the boss what he wanted to hear. The CIA got the same "Everything is going great boss" briefings.


User currently offlinechecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4454 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 17):
How many times do you have to step on the rake that will hit you in the face and get bitten in the ass before the west realises that shortsighted interference in a sovreign country's internal affairs is not good.

This coming from a guy in 'Russia'?? After all the work the 'West' did helping break down the barriers from which your government hid the outside world from its own people??


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

Hey, we've done it both ways. "Abetting friendly [hopefully] stable authoritarian regimes" might be Russia's current preferred method of harmonious international relations, but we've tried that too! Didn't work, for the most part.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 21):
Hey, we've done it both ways. "Abetting friendly [hopefully] stable authoritarian regimes" might be Russia's current preferred method of harmonious international relations, but we've tried that too! Didn't work, for the most part.

Yes, in fact it had a tendency to come back and bite.
Perhaps this support of Assad is just another manifestation of a foreign policy of Putin's, which seems based mainly on opposition to much of the world, to prove some fallacy of superpower status.
And/or one bunch of gangsters helping another.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4189 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
Islamic terrorists that use the civilian population as a cover. The same they have done in Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Libya...long list here.

Well, we have terrorists here from time to time (every month some are found, currently), and they get arrested/killed by the police, not by military airstrikes !

Besides, in Syria things were started by the civilian population, and the regime started shooting at them when they were unarmed. That would make anybody become a "terrorist". That's how revolutions start.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
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