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F-35 Good News / Same Old News  
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3384 posts, RR: 26
Posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 11368 times:
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According to Flight Global, the US Marines now have an 8 plane training squadron in action.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...glin-afb-marines-fly-first-f-.html

the same old news is: it was noted elsewhere that the computer programing completion may slip further out.

the question remains will these 8 aircraft still be operational when the programming is finally installed, or will they be in the desert? Further will the pilots being trained still be in the service at that point? If not, what is the point in training them?

90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11348 times:

Despite the ridiculous costs, in my mind it seems the F35 is now a foregone conclusion.

Quoting kanban (Thread starter):

the question remains will these 8 aircraft still be operational when the programming is finally installed, or will they be in the desert?

Seems like the early F16As got used for quite a while before being retired off.

If it's just software being upgraded then chances are good it will happen.

If that software requires a bunch of computer upgrades to run, at some point they won't bother.

Quoting kanban (Thread starter):
Further will the pilots being trained still be in the service at that point?

Surely some will be.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11224 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):

If it's just software being upgraded then chances are good it will happen.

It's software. Even number blocks are pure software upgrades, odd number blocks are more extensive and are akin to a commercial C check as they involve structural work.

The USMC intends on IOC in July 2015, per the latest comments from the Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos.



Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):

Surely some will be.

And some will be the instructors training other F-35 pilots.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11202 times:

Quoting kanban (Thread starter):
what is the point in training them?

That's a great point. Someone should ask the Marines if all the pilots now flying the F-35 are contractually obligated to stay on beyond 2019 and for how long beyond 2019. That is the only way it would make sense to train pilots now - and even that's a stretch because the same pilots could just as easily wait a few more years to start training.

I don't know about the B version, but the A and C versions only require 3 training flights to qualify on the F-35.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 11186 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 3):
That's a great point. Someone should ask the Marines if all the pilots now flying the F-35 are contractually obligated to stay on beyond 2019 and for how long beyond 2019. That is the only way it would make sense to train pilots now - and even that's a stretch because the same pilots could just as easily wait a few more years to start training.

This is likely more along the lines of starting to write "the book" on the plane, operating it, and maintaining it. Also developing a pool of instructors.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3384 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11149 times:
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Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 3):
the A and C versions only require 3 training flights to qualify on the F-35.

I hope:
1) that's with some prior flying training in another comparable aircraft
2) that's after all the computer code is written and installed freeing the pilot forget the plane operation and go looking for something to shoot at.
3) the tail hook is working

Pointguy.. I'm being sarcastic..


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11148 times:

All this to and fro about the F-35.

It may have some great features, yet to be demonstrated, and it may have some real drawbacks (my personal belief), but also yet to be demonstrated or documented. Many in the mil-av community are dubious about this thing. But it's likely too big to stop for the USA. The same is not true for others, i.e., Oz buying more SHs.

The only image I can conjure up is something swirling the bowl after you flush. Definitely something will come out the other end of the pipe. But not necessarily what you thought it would be.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11145 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
yet to be demonstrated
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
yet to be demonstrated or documented
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
But not necessarily what you thought it would be.

How can you say C after you say A and B?


User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 11073 times:

Whats the 'good news' here? What's the cost overrun on this program now? Is it more then the amount the FAA faced with sequestration cuts? And whats the latest betting line in Vegas for the C model's redesigned tail-hook actually working this summer?
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/04/10/lo...mises-tailhook-fix-to-navys-f-35c/


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

Quoting seachaz (Reply 8):
Whats the 'good news' here? What's the cost overrun on this program now?
http://www.armed-services.senate.gov...013/04%20April/Bogdan_04-24-13.pdf

Quote:
Concurrency costs were originally estimated to be roughly 5%-8% of recurring flyaway costs. Over the past year, the F-35 program has worked with Lockheed Martin to refine the estimate of concurrency costs based on actual F-35 discrete data results from qualification events. As a result of this approach, our concurrency estimate has decreased to 3%-5% of recurring flyaway costs
Quote:
As in any complex development program there are challenges, but I believe the enhanced capability of the F-35 will provide the backbone of the US combat air superiority for generations to come. The technological capabilities of the aircraft are sound. The program’s management is rising to the challenges of managing this complex system with discipline, transparency and accountability. Our progress continues at a slow but steady pace. I intend on completing this program within the budget and schedule I have been given. I ask that you hold me, my team, our stakeholders and contractors accountable over the coming months and years to ensure that we develop and deliver the warfighting capability this country needs.
Quoting seachaz (Reply 8):
And whats the latest betting line in Vegas for the C model's redesigned tail-hook actually working this summer?
Quote:
A Critical Design Review was completed in February 2013 on a redesigned arresting hook system and modeling and simulation involving the redesigned hook showed a marked improvement in performance. Ground test of this newly redesigned hook is scheduled at Lakehurst, NJ in the 4th Quarter of 2013, followed by aircraft carrier qualifications in 3rd Quarter of 2014. Although work remains to be done, I am confident this new hook will meet our needs.


Those are the words from F-35 program chief Gen Bogdan as of April 24, 2013 on those topics to the Senate Armed Services Committee.


User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11029 times:

"Specifically, the total cost of the four contracts for 63 planes was $12.28 billion — 10.9 percent more than the amount awarded under the original contracts. The government's share of the total overrun is about $756 million under the sharing incentive provisions included in the contracts, with Lockheed presumably footing the rest of the bill."

http://www.bizjournals.com/washingto...-racked-up-12-billion-in-cost.html

"The FAA had no choice but to cut $637 million as its share of $85 billion in automatic, government-wide spending cuts that must be achieved by the end of the federal budget year on Sept. 30."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireS...ll-operation-19057144#.UXzjKrWsh8E


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3384 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10938 times:
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Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 9):
Those are the words

Thanks for the quote.. however the good general speaks in terms of percentages without accompanying numbers, so it is hard to tell just what a 3%-5% really means. But then most legislators are too dumb to look deeper.

on the tail hook, it is interesting that with a sense of urgency to correct the fault, and resume carrier trials, it will take over two years to correct and retrofit. This not a criticism of the plane, but one of the manufacturer. This part of the overrun costs should not be split with the government.


User currently offlineseachaz From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10880 times:

The tail hook problem to me is one that should never have happened - its not new technology, its not even a new approach to an existing problem. Now there will be direct costs for the redesign but what about the added cost for the delays in testing other carrier specific systems at sea.

Anyway hope they get it all figured out and Lockheed is left footing a major portion of the bill. Still would love to see the C in full carrier ops, current air wings getting a bit stale looking with so many hornets and the C is best looking of the 3 variants to boot IMO.


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 10862 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 11):
on the tail hook, it is interesting that with a sense of urgency to correct the fault, and resume carrier trials, it will take over two years to correct and retrofit. This not a criticism of the plane, but one of the manufacturer. This part of the overrun costs should not be split with the government.

Well, the tail hook was supposed to be carrier trialed this year, but due to sequestration, this got pushed out. So in this case, the government is to blame for this.

Quoting seachaz (Reply 12):
The tail hook problem to me is one that should never have happened - its not new technology, its not even a new approach to an existing problem.

However, how the tail hook behaves when it tries to catch the cable is unique for every aircraft. Here's a quick history on tail hook design up to and including the F-35:
http://thanlont.blogspot.ca/2011/12/...ef-history-of-tailhook-design.html


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10828 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 7):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
yet to be demonstrated
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
yet to be demonstrated or documented
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
But not necessarily what you thought it would be.

How can you say C after you say A and B?

Quite easily. Apparently you do not grasp what "yet to be demonstrated" means.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10817 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 9):
Concurrency costs were originally estimated to be roughly 5%-8% of recurring flyaway costs. Over the past year, the F-35 program has worked with Lockheed Martin to refine the estimate of concurrency costs based on actual F-35 discrete data results from qualification events. As a result of this approach, our concurrency estimate has decreased to 3%-5% of recurring flyaway costs

Hmm, my college professors would never let me get away with comparing percentages of unstated quantities...

Quoting kanban (Reply 11):
Thanks for the quote.. however the good general speaks in terms of percentages without accompanying numbers, so it is hard to tell just what a 3%-5% really means

  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3384 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10780 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Hmm, my college professors would never let me get away with comparing percentages of unstated quantities...

you didn't happen to learn from Dr. Deming at Geo Washington did you?


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10127 times:

Eglin AFB received it's first Block 2A aircraft:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...es-its-first-block-2a-f-35-385643/

Quote:
Eglin AFB receives its first Block 2A F-35

By: Dave Majumdar Washington DC

The US Air Force's 33rd Fighter Wing at Eglin AFB, Florida, received its first Block 2A configuration Lockheed Martin F-35A on 6 May. Another similarly configured aircraft is scheduled to arrive at the base later in the month.

This aircraft called, AF-25, is equipped with an initial version of the Block 2A configuration, but Eglin AFB will receive aircraft with a more advanced version of the software package later in the year, says Lt Col Lee Kloos, commander of the wing's 58th Fighter Squadron.

The squadron will receive the last of its 24 primary authorized aircraft and two backup aircraft by February 2014. Around that same time, the unit will start helping prepare the USAF's second training unit at Luke AFB, Arizona, which is expected to start receiving F-35As in January 2014, gear up to start training operations.

More at the link above.

Block 2A activates a number of features on the F-35 including:
- DAS sensors fully activated (instead of only half the sensors being activated)
- Enhanced data link systems activated
- Weather radar mode
- Enhanced training modes activated


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9739 times:

USAF maintenance staff working on the F-35 are reporting good news regarding the durability and maintainability of the F-35's coatings:

More at the link below:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...aintain-than-on-older-jets-385731/

Quote:
US Air Force maintenance troops working on the Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter at Eglin AFB, Florida, say the stealth coatings on the new fifth-generation type are proving easier to work on than those on earlier low-observable (LO) platforms.

Maintaining the LO coatings on the new aircraft marks "a significant improvement", says Senior Master Sgt Eric Wheeler, a maintainer assigned to the 33rd Fighter Wing at the base. "Typically, [it] has not caused us a whole lot of downtime on this jet."

As maintenance personnel have become used to working on the F-35, the process has also become a lot easier. "We started off with an engine run being a huge event for us, [and progressed] to flying a four-turn-four," Wheeler says, referring in the latter case to a situation where a four-ship formation of aircraft can return from a sortie and be swiftly prepared to take off again.

This was hinted by other articles that the F-35's stealth coatings were considerably more durable and easier to maintain compared to previous generation of stealthly aircraft, with more of the internals being easier to access:
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-f-35-low-...-for-21st-century-combat-aviation/


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9473 times:

We also have a video of the intentional departure and recovery in high angle of attack testing up on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWji8AcOYGA

Notice the tail slide in the first 15 seconds of the video.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...-35a-departure-testing-at-edw.html


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9362 times:

First non-test pilot to conduct an aerial refueling in the F-35:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....l/asd_05_17_2013_p03-01-579864.xml

The pilots seem to like the F-35 behind a tanker due to the different handling characteristics:

Quote:
Kloos says the F-35 is a stable refueling platform. Behind the tanker, handling qualities of the Lockheed Martin F-16 are “like driving a bumpy gravel road, while in the F-35 it’s a smooth, paved highway.”

The view is echoed by Tech Sgt. William Joe Parker, boom operator in the 336t Air Refueling Sqn Boeing KC-135 for the first refueling mission at the Eglin ITC. “He just parked the aircraft behind ours.”

The F-35’s flight-control laws change when the refueling-receptacle doors are opened, making it easier for the pilot to make small corrections, a technique similar to that used in the F-16.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 9332 times:

Further cuts in F-35 procurement:

http://breakingdefense.com/2013/05/1...s-air-guard-modernization-at-risk/

By Sydney K. Freedberg Jr. a defense writer, and thus highly knowledgeable and connected.

“I don’t have the exact number yet,” Air Force Maj. Gen. Edward Bolton said Tuesday, but to pay the bill for sequestration, the service might have to cut its fiscal 2013 procurements by “two, three, four, maybe even five F-35s.”


User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9073 times:

The USAF is expected to advance the data they declare IOC with F-35 to 2016, according to two sources in a recent news article:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...bre94j0v0-20130520,0,6064960.story

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force plans to start operational use of Lockheed Martin Corp.-built F-35 fighter jets in mid-2016, a year earlier than planned, using a similar software package as the Marine Corps, two sources familiar with the plans said on Monday.

The Air Force's decision to accelerate its introduction with a slightly less capable version of the F-35 software package means the planes will carry fewer weapons at first, although the software will later be upgraded to the final version, said the sources, who were not authorized to speak publicly.

Air Force spokeswoman Ann Stefanek said a final decision had not been made and declined to comment further. A spokesman for the Pentagon's F-35 program office declined to comment.

The decision reflects the military's desire to start using the new warplanes, which are already rolling off the assembly line at Lockheed's sprawling Fort Worth, Texas, plant, even as military officials continue to test the plane.

"This decision gets that (U.S.) fifth-generation capability out on the front lines that much sooner," said one of the sources familiar with the Air Force's plans. "It also sends a message about confidence in the program to Congress and the international partners."

Former Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne said accelerating operational use of the new warplane would allow the Air Force to learn more about the F-35's integrated battle management system.

"This is not just about replacing aging F-15's or F-16's; it is about changing the order of battle and truly embracing a integrated form of warfare where the F-35 manages the targeting and directs supporting fire at the same time as providing more precise aim points," Wynne told Reuters in an email.

The Air Force, Marines and Navy must report to Congress by June 1 on their target dates for initial operational capability, or IOC, which marks the point when the services have enough planes on hand to go to war if needed. Actual deployments usually lag IOC dates by about a year.

The sources said the services would send Congress a list of target or "objective" dates for declaring initial operational capability and a list of "threshold" dates, or deadlines.

The Marines Corps is sticking to its plan to begin early operational use in mid-2015 of its F-35B jets, which can take off and land like a helicopter. It will be the first of the three U.S. military services to start using the jets.

More at the link.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3384 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9048 times:
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We have a vertical take off and landing video
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th.../f-35b-vertical-takeoff-video.html

however Flight Global notes:
"Anyways, vertical takeoff is a US Marine Corps requirement, however it's only intended from repositioning the jet where a short takeoff is not possible. That's because the F-35B can only do a vertical takeoff while lightly loaded with about 4,500lbs of gas--meaning it wouldn't be carrying a tactically significant payload."

So one wonders why set the plane down in the first place? for a potty break that you have to leave any munitions behind to get off again?


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 875 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8874 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 23):
So one wonders why set the plane down in the first place? for a potty break that you have to leave any munitions behind to get off again?

I would imagine any number of emergency situations might have you set down wherever you could. It might also let you relocate from just outside of a hardened shelter at an airbase with a smashed runway to say a nearby road where you could take on fuel and munitions. Or if there was a deck fouling on the big amphibious ships you might be able to set down on another small flight deck until it is clear and then reposition to the amphibious ship.

Really it is just kind of a bonus capability since the thing is designed to be a STOVL aircraft.

I will be more interested to see what the things MTOW with say a 700 foot roll turns out to be.


25 Post contains links ThePointblank : Good / bad news regarding costs: http://www.defense.gov/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=16035 First good news: F-35 aircraft program costs are droppin
26 Post contains links ThePointblank : IOC dates have been announced by the USAF, USMC, and USN: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...13/05/f-35-ioc-dates-revealed.html The USAF's date is
27 Post contains links and images ThePointblank : We have a live fire missile test! https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35a-completes-first-in-flight-missile-launch
28 Post contains links ThePointblank : Concurency costs have dropped by $500 million dollars according to the Pentagon: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...st-f-35s-drops-by-500-million.
29 Post contains links and images ThePointblank : We have a F-35C used for the heavyweight tow tests: http://www.codeonemagazine.com/f35_news_item.html?item_id=1073 It's 4 2000lb GBU-31 JDAM's on the
30 Powerslide : Why they using external pylons? It pretty much negates the whole "stealth" selling point. What a bloated pig, USMC, USAF and other countries should ju
31 rwessel : It's a "heavyweight ground tow test". The F-35 can certainly carry external ordnance (which obviously impacts stealth), and it can't carry 8000lbs in
32 spink : well for one, because it is a test. For another, the F35 is designed to use external stores in a permissive environment to increase capacity. In a pe
33 Oroka : You know exactly why they are using pylons that negates stealth and your comment was just a troll effort.
34 Powerslide : Where is that facepalm smiley when you need it. All three of you apparently missed the sarcasm.
35 Ozair : Just to be clear, internal load is 2 * 2K + 2 * AIM-120 for F-35A & C and 2 * 1K + 2 * AIM-120 for F-35B. Combining external and internal it is c
36 SSTeve : I missed it, too. It could easily have been said in earnest by someone. Just because you and the 3 others think it's a self-evidently risible stateme
37 ThePointblank : And even then, you still have 17k remaining in the MTOW for a F-35C for fuel. That's almost a full tank for a F-35. In other words, a heavily loaded
38 Post contains links tommytoyz : http://nation.time.com/2013/06/04/al...ther-pricing-dodges/#ixzz2VFqhiLWj Time Magazine has done a lot of research. They explain it very well. Read yo
39 ThePointblank : Read who wrote the article. It's Winslow Wheeler. Not the most objective person to write the article. Wheeler has been the lead bagman for the anti-d
40 tommytoyz : PB, why do you make stuff up here on A.net?
41 Post contains links tommytoyz : http://digital.vpr.net/post/f-16-architect-calls-f-35-combat-turkey Another interesting take. I suggest listening to the audio
42 Post contains links Ozair : Wheeler is an outspoken critic of not only the F-35 but a lot of new development systems Tommy, no two ways about it. Sprey's views on the F-35 are w
43 tommytoyz : Read or listen to what he says about the F-16 today and the follow up designs to the F-16. Besides, the Soviet Union is long gone and was a different
44 Post contains links BigJKU : Setting aside the issue of the man for a bit I think the article you linked to is not really telling anyone much. Those different cost factors are pr
45 Post contains links and images ThePointblank : Actually, Sprey was not the designer of the F-16. According to Jacob Neufeld, who interviewed Sprey in 1971, Pierre Sprey was a weapons system analys
46 tommytoyz : He explains the soup. He is not critical of the soup itself. What he is critical of, is how the numbers, in the case of the F-35, are jigged so the s
47 kanban : Many people have opinions, the ones we agree with that have some background we call experts, those we disagree with regardless of background we quest
48 tommytoyz : The waste and corruption and selfish self serving going on within this program, at the expense of other needy government expenditures, is not funny t
49 Post contains links ThePointblank : Actually, he is. From your article from Time: The issue is that there are multiple ways to calculate CPFH because there are multiple cost elements th
50 Post contains links Ozair : Sure, and they are entitled to them. But when those opinions are used to justify a statement or are assumed to be fact they are open to examination.
51 Post contains links ThePointblank : Correction: We've already dropped JDAM's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=YaJeA8P67cY So we have demonstrated basic weapon
52 kanban : OK guys.. they've done some test range drops in a highly controlled environment... . however isn't software still 2 years or more away.. aren't there
53 tommytoyz : Exactly. The TIME author was not complaining about the use and need for these accounting values. He was complaining about the assumptions that were u
54 Post contains links Ozair : Agree on all of those but there are fixes in place that will be tested in the next two years to remedy the current known issues. Isn't that what a de
55 Powerslide : So what are you doing to stop this besides whine on internet forums? Nothing, like most of internet complainers who think they know better than gover
56 kanban : I mainly look at the manufacturing process.. and while it appears LM have adopted some improved flow processes, however I can't help wondering if bui
57 tommytoyz : All designers try to obtain the maximum potential possible from their designs. The F-35s can't turn any better than F-4s by the way. Funny you bring
58 kanban : While you may discredit them, consider they do represent a divergent opinion which if not understood (different from discarded) can not only contain
59 Post contains links tommytoyz : Shortfall metrics: Sustained Gs Acceleration Range Take off distance Weight Unable to catch a wire Program time and cost slippage that is hard to acc
60 Post contains links Ozair : I don't have a lot of experience in that area so interesting to hear what you're saying. While 240 a year is very high, GD managed it with the F-16 f
61 Post contains links ThePointblank : There also a number of local assembly facilities for certain regions. These facilities, known as Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO), also add to the
62 spink : Can we please drop this false trope? The performance of the F35 given the metrics of the test parameters performs much better than any other comparab
63 kanban : Thanks for the videos.. they help explain a lot.. yes there are more robotics than I had seen in earlier reports. The moving line however isn't movin
64 Post contains links and images KPDX : Caught an F-35B doing some testing at Fort Worth NAS yesterday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fonKdoj9pcs
65 tommytoyz : We will just have to agree to disagree. Even empty, the F-35 can not achieve a sustained turn anywhere near that of an F-16, nor better acceleration.
66 spudh : Ozair, Kanban, PB, Thank you for some excellent, informative posts. This is what makes a forum like A.Net worthwhile. Ozair, I love that elements of p
67 Post contains links ThePointblank : I will note that LM is scheduled during the Paris Air Show for a media press briefing on the F-35 on June 19th at 12:30 p.m. -- 1:30 p.m for a 45 minu
68 BigJKU : For good measure the T/W ratio for each with the Hornets thrown in for fun. F-16C Empty (Dry): 0.94 Empty (Wet): 1.58 F-18C Empty (Dry): 0.95 Empty (
69 tommytoyz : Spudh, So do you agree with me that the kinematic performance of the F-16 is far better than that of the F-35? You don't say either way. I am not clea
70 Post contains images tommytoyz : Lest we forget: PB want to comment? And spudh, please be specific when you claim that I make stuff up or you are the one making stuff up about me. I w
71 BigJKU : Honestly I doubt you will find anyone that wants to debate sustained turn rates with you anymore. It is a very complex subject that is drastically im
72 tommytoyz : Regarding the F-35's sustained turn performance, it's not a mater of discussing what the max sustained G performance is anymore. There is nothing to
73 Post contains images ThePointblank : Indeed. Even the same aircraft loaded differently will affect turn performance. Below is the F-16C's EM diagram: If you looked at the top of the char
74 Post contains links BigJKU : Ok, but again that is not the whole picture as people have tried to tell you for a while. At what altitude with what payload and at what speed was it
75 tommytoyz : Nobody here knows exactly at what parameters, i.e. altitude, weights, speed, etc... the DoD determined the F-35's max sustain turn performance to be
76 Post contains links BigJKU : The DOD statement was this. "The program announced an intention to change performance specifications for the F-35A, reducing turn performance from 5.
77 Post contains links and images ThePointblank : No, you are. Look at the F-16C chart I posted; it's for a clean configuration with just over 1,500lb of fuel. A F-16C loaded with 1,500lb of fuel wil
78 Post contains links Ozair : That is the whole point. Tommy's entire argument is based on an assumption, an incorrect one, that the figures released are representative of the ent
79 Post contains links tommytoyz : BigJKU, We will have to agree to disagree. It's clear to me that the reduced performance metrics are the maximum possible - not just under certain par
80 tommytoyz : PB, at what weight, speed and altitude is the F-35 new sustained 4.6 G? I did not make the comparison.... Since the F-35 parameters are not known and
81 tommytoyz : PB has never said peep about that made up story. Nobody has clarified it. I have asked him a number of times to do just that. Perhaps you can? This d
82 tommytoyz : I am fine with that interpretation of yours, though I do not concur. If you want to interpret it as meaning the sustained G metric is only reduced at
83 Post contains images ThePointblank : The Bowman paper indicated Mach 0.8 at 15,000 ft at the original specs of 5 G. with a pair of AIM-120's and 60% fuel. Obviously, they are making a co
84 spink : Except you have proven again and again that you don't know the basis nor the importance of the metric. I'll say it once again, the metrics used to ca
85 Post contains links tommytoyz : I asked if you knew, Bowman is a student paper from 2008. In reality your information relies on the blog post here http://elementsofpower.blogspot.co
86 tommytoyz : 1. You do not know what the exact F-35 parameters are, unless you go along with Bowman from 2008 2. Even if you did, you are making a huge error. You
87 ThePointblank : Even I said 'assuming'. I clearly also stated that I made an assumption. And he cites a source for his figures, that if you look, indicates that he w
88 Post contains links spudh : Interesting choice of phrase from someone bravely sitting at a keyboard thousands of miles away from me. I wasn't actually referring to you lying abo
89 tommytoyz : Pot calling the kettle black? You have accuse me of lying, comparing my actions to PB'a. But there is a huge difference between myself and PB. Namely
90 wilco737 : Thread will be locked now as it is drifting into name calling, accusations etc.
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