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Nice Video Of F-22 Kill  
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12437 times:

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2013/.../video-rafale-dogfighting-f22.html

By Rafale with canon. Needed to pull 9 Gs twice to do it, but it is on par with the F-22 within visual range maneuverability. F-22 can't shake it. Where the F-22 has thrust vectoring, Rafale has canards. Rare to see such footage. Enjoy!

Within the blog news on Rafale is also a new A2A decoy.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2013/...developement-tragedac-and-lea.html

High sustained Gs are also good for defeating inbound missiles, the more the better.

83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejupiter2 From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 915 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12423 times:

Looked absolutely exhausting but a lot of fun too !!
Of course if your life depended on it, it would lose a bit of the fun factor.


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12252 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Thread starter):
By Rafale with canon. Needed to pull 9 Gs twice to do it, but it is on par with the F-22 within visual range maneuverability.

No surprise as the F-22 isn't a wonder machine. It is optimized for supersonic flight and maneuver and therefore when it comes WVR of the eurocanards, who are designed for sub-sonic maneuver, it will always be close. I can't read french but given the canned nature of these exercises it is hard to tell how it started.

Quoting tommytoyz (Thread starter):
High sustained Gs are also good for defeating inbound missiles, the more the better.

Not sure what you mean by this. The 9G turns in the video are instantaneous turns, given the huge speed and probably altitude loss. It does show perfectly how a WVR fight occurs though. Both aircraft pull max G instantaneous turns trying to get that first IR shot off until they are low on speed. Then it comes down to which one can recover energy and still turn their nose, maybe as well which pilot recovers quicker given the high G load. Also shows how important high AoA is in allowing you that first IR shot.


User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12040 times:

Nice to see what the boys at Dassault are dreaming of lately. if it were MY Life, I'd rather be the pilot of the F-22.
On a YouTube video, you can have F-4s defeating F-22s as well.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13253 posts, RR: 77
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11997 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 3):
Nice to see what the boys at Dassault are dreaming of lately. if it were MY Life, I'd rather be the pilot of the F-22.
On a YouTube video, you can have F-4s defeating F-22s as well.

So you are saying it is fake?

Did you read the text below, which said that it's not about which type is better, at least in this instance.
It is however an interesting look at close combat by two modern types, neither of which has yet to go and do it for real against enemy aircraft. The Rafale of course has seen plenty of air to ground in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali.
They led the air attacks on Libya in fact, prior to the US, RAF or others. In the strike on Gaddafi's forces bombarding Benghazi. This at least showed confidence in it's ability to penetrate hostile airspace, which had a fairly decent SAM/AAA capability, before the suppressive packages of Tomahawks, stand off weapons, SEAD went in.

I was struck by the physical exertions of the pilot at high G's.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11841 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 2):
No surprise as the F-22 isn't a wonder machine. It is optimized for supersonic flight and maneuver and therefore when it comes WVR of the eurocanards, who are designed for sub-sonic maneuver, it will always be close. I can't read french but given the canned nature of these exercises it is hard to tell how it started.

My guess is BFM, both starting at visual range. Looks like at around 4 minutes 40 seconds, the Rafale stalled trying to catch the Raptor going over the top. Looks like the Raptor didn't extend properly and the Rafale fell right onto his 6 o'clock, so the Raptor pilot messed up. Had the Raptor pilot extend properly, the Rafale would have been "dead" as the Raptor pilot would have had enough energy to get a better angle on the Rafale.

I also like how the Rafale's radar keeps losing target track on the Raptor even though they're WVR.

Of course, if in a real combat scenario, the Rafale would have been dead prior to the merge... BFM is not exactly the best way to test aircraft superiority, it more of a matter of pilot skill.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11810 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
Of course, if in a real combat scenario, the Rafale would have been dead prior to the merge

Assuming the Rafale could not defeat inbound A2A missiles. In real world stats for A2A missiles hitting are far less than 50% of the time if I remember correctly. Yes missiles are getting better all the time, but so are measures to defeat them. The further away the missiles are shot from, the less likely they are to hit, as the stats also show, from what I remember.

Assuming the F-22 pilot messed up is.....interesting, since you do not know all the metrics of the F-22 in this situation. The brute force of having to go through those Gs is palpable. That's why you need automation as much as possible as under that kind of stress, your focus narrows. The Rafale for instance has automatic A2A countermeasures, flares, decoys, jamming, etc...No pilot could do that will pulling 9Gs.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 2):
Not sure what you mean by this. The 9G turns in the video are instantaneous turns, given the huge speed and probably altitude loss.

1. I never said the 9Gs in the video were sustained
2. However, the better your turning performance is, the better it is for a lot of situations
3. It is not clear if the speed and altitude losses are attributable to the turning or other parts of the maneuvers, such as high AoA or deliberate decent on the part of the F-22.
4. Every turn has an instantaneous G value at a certain point in time - sustained or not. I think you mean pulling high Gs for a very short duration. Just nit picking here, but some here are using the terms "instantaneous Gs" and "short duration Gs" interchangeably. However, they are two entirely different things.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11759 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Assuming the F-22 pilot messed up is.....interesting, since you do not know all the metrics of the F-22 in this situation.

Pretty obvious the F-22 pilot made a mistake, as he had the energy to continue the fight in the vertical while the Rafale stalled, and all he had to do was to extend properly and he would be right on the Rafale's rear.

Remember: BFM is more about pilot skill, not aircraft performance. A good pilot makes the most of the advantages of his aircraft while minimizing the deficiencies of his aircraft.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Assuming the Rafale could not defeat inbound A2A missiles. In real world stats for A2A missiles hitting are far less than 50% of the time if I remember correctly. Yes missiles are getting better all the time, but so are measures to defeat them. The further away the missiles are shot from, the less likely they are to hit, as the stats also show, from what I remember.

It's a situational. If it's the edge of the missile's envelope, then the pk would be a lot lower than if it was in the NEZ. Also mis-employment of the weapons (such as firing a missile at a target outside it's engagement zone) will guarantee a miss.

Pk is also quite dependent on how precise targeting information can be fed to the missile. If targeting information is precise, then pk will be decent even in long range shots with low missile kinetic energy. With imprecise targeting information pk will be very poor even with missile rocket thrust.

A lot of pk is also dependent on warning the target gets before missile is about to hit. With no warning, even a slow unpowered missile will likely hit the target. With early warning, the pk will go down as the target will try to evade the missile and make the engagement as difficult to the missile as possible. With a combination of LPI radar systems, a VLO airframe, and good sensors, one can make life extremely difficult for any aircraft without such a combination, as one can provide accurate targeting information to a missile while reducing the chance of the enemy detecting you and evading the missiles, and at the same time, you can fire your long range missiles closer so that the missiles have more energy during the engagement. With weapons like AMRAAM, when the terminal guidance radar turns on alerting the target's RWR, you literally have a few seconds before that missile impacts the target, and that's not enough time for a pilot to react.

I'll show you this video from the HUD of a F-16 involved in the Package Q Strike during Gulf War I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMu6mGgqepo

Imagine yourself in that cockpit, dodging missiles successfully. Ask yourself what your situational awareness would be (Listen to the radio calls looking for the guy that got hit...). Imagine the stress hearing over the radio that everyone is under attack, and some of your wingmen are being shot down while you are trying to dodge enemy missiles. Listen to the radio chatter past the 4 minute mark and hear how stressed everyone is.

Now try to imagine dodging missiles, while closing in with the shooter you weren't able to detect until after it had fired, and you can't retaliate against the shooter (assuming you can detect it even after it fired, and bearing in mind the shooter isn't likely alone out there). How would you think the engagement would work out?

What makes you think the enemy will want to get in WVR to dog fight, as the enemy can always choose to deal with you at BVR and be done with it. There is no rule that says one has to fight your enemy WVR.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11708 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
I'll show you this video from the HUD of a F-16 involved in the Package Q Strike during Gulf War I:

Ancient history. These days, A2A missiles are detected by IR sensors and counter measures are much more effective and automated.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
the enemy can always choose to deal with you at BVR and be done with it.

Another incorrect assumption, similar to the 100% kill rate probability of A2A missiles.

Fighter fight each other, encounter each other and they always will - at least in the next few decades. When it happens, if you think that you will always

1. Have missiles left
2. All your fired missiles will hit their mark
3. Have enough fuel left to outrun or avoid enemies
4. Be in a superior firing position
5. Be faster or be able to outrun the enemy
6. Be in a much higher state of kinetic energy than the enemy when encountered

Are nothing more than relying on luck. In war anything and everything happens and no war fighter should rely on certain situations not occurring. Otherwise, when they inevitably do, the days of that individual are counted.


User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11704 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
Pretty obvious the F-22 pilot made a mistake, as he had the energy

How do you know what his AoA, G load and energy state was in that instant? There is no way for you to determine that.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11668 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 8):
Ancient history. These days, A2A missiles are detected by IR sensors and counter measures are much more effective and automated.

Not ancient history. IR sensors have limited ranges against certain targets and a missile inbound is a fairly small target. You will probably at most detect a missile inbound at around 15-20 miles out, and with a missile traveling at Mach 2-3, a missile impact is literally a few seconds away.

Also, the F-16 Block 30, 40's & 50's in the video I showed have automated counter measures, and they were the state-of-the art against Iraqi air defences using everything from WWII AAA guns to fairly modern Soviet supplied SAM's. They also had the benefit of clear skies in daylight where they could visually see the SAM launches to react to them. And even then, 2 F-16's were shot down out of a package of over 50, with most of the remaining jets damaged in one way or another. If you listen to the background noise, you will also hear the F-16's RWR's going off alerting the pilot he's been locked onto. And they also had to face MiG-29's menacing them as they left.

So you had F-16 pilots in a situation where they had plenty of warning that they were being targeted and fired upon by a opponent without the ability to retaliate and they still took losses.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 8):
Another incorrect assumption, similar to the 100% kill rate probability of A2A missiles.
1. Have missiles left
2. All your fired missiles will hit their mark
3. Have enough fuel left to outrun or avoid enemies
4. Be in a superior firing position
5. Be faster or be able to outrun the enemy
6. Be in a much higher state of kinetic energy than the enemy when encountered

Are nothing more than relying on luck. In war anything and everything happens and no war fighter should rely on certain situations not occurring. Otherwise, when they inevitably do, the days of that individual are counted.

It's a correct assumption, as someone with a VLO airframe, a LPI radar and good sensors will have the ability to setup the terms of the engagement to their advantage. If they don't have the advantage, you simply don't engage. No one says you have to always engage the enemy. Sometimes it is a better idea to bug out before the shooting starts to fight another day.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 9):
How do you know what his AoA, G load and energy state was in that instant? There is no way for you to determine that.
BFM is about the pilot's skill not aircraft performance. A good pilot makes the most of the advantages of his aircraft while minimizing the deficiencies of his aircraft, which means he keeps a eye on all of the factors you mentioned and works to make sure that he gets the advantage. That's why you hear of situations where instructor pilots flying T-38's beat new F-22 pilots in BFM.

[Edited 2013-06-19 19:40:19]

User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11485 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
So you are saying it is fake?



Let's just say I have my doubts. I seen both in action at various Red Flag exercises during my career.

[Edited 2013-06-20 04:09:33]


336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2197 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11244 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Assuming the Rafale could not defeat inbound A2A missiles. In real world stats for A2A missiles hitting are far less than 50% of the time if I remember correctly.

In trying to defeat the inbound A2A, the Rafale would have lost any energy advantage while the Raptor is already maneuvering for a second shot.

Given a choice I would choose first and second shot first. Then may be turn tail before I have to use real bullets.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11090 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):

I'll show you this video from the HUD of a F-16 involved in the Package Q Strike during Gulf War I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMu6mGgqepo

Very interesting. Thanks for the post.



Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 10773 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 12):
In trying to defeat the inbound A2A, the Rafale would have lost any energy advantage while the Raptor is already maneuvering for a second shot.

All depends on the scenario. The reverse could also be true. In real war you do not get to control and choose when, where or how the enemy flies.

This video is quite long and is not some lucky situation where the F-22 happens across the opponent's nose. Rather it seems to be pulling max Gs and all it's got to get away, but it can't.

Anything less than an F-22 would probably be clubbed like a baby seal by Rafale or similar performing aircraft.


User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 606 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 10709 times:

Interesting as the article I previously read said that out of 7 dogfights, they tied 6 times and the F-22 won on the other.


Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10562 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 11):
Let's just say I have my doubts. I seen both in action at various Red Flag exercises during my career.

To add, the military's top priority isn't to let the world know of its aircraft's true capabilities. Pretty funny reading some message boards, especially this one, where some people think they know WTF is going on. Hilarious really.


User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1214 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9966 times:

Everybody missed the part of the video where they said the F-22 had external tanks, and the Rafale didn't? Not that I know anything about WVR combat, but that seems important...

Now, that was the only part of the text in English too, so maybe I missed some French text stating something else.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9908 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 17):
Everybody missed the part of the video where they said the F-22 had external tanks,

I saw that. But that information is almost useless as we don't know if there was any fuel in the F-22's tanks, or if there was - how much. Nor if the Rafale had external tanks and if the Rafale did, how much fuel Rafale was in them, etc...A lot of missing data.

I would personally assume that in the number of engagements that they had, that they tried to make the carried loads representative of reality, otherwise why bother? To me, the two seem about evenly matched in the WVR dogfight scenario.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9900 times:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 18):
I would personally assume that in the number of engagements that they had, that they tried to make the carried loads representative of reality, otherwise why bother? To me, the two seem about evenly matched in the WVR dogfight scenario.

Not really; remember that in the past, during a series of mock engagements between Luftwaffe Typhoon's and F-22's, the Typhoons were reported to have been clean aerodynamically with no external weapons and fuel:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ress-during-red-flag-debut-373312/

Quote:
The Typhoons were stripped of their external fuel tanks and slicked off as much as possible before the encounter with the Raptors, says Grune, who adds that in that configuration, the Typhoon is an "animal".

The thing is, as repeated multiple times, basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) isn't about aircraft performance, its about pilot skill.


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9866 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 17):
Everybody missed the part of the video where they said the F-22 had external tanks, and the Rafale didn't? Not that I know anything about WVR combat, but that seems important...

well I suggest you learn a little bit of french, as the text in french explains that we could read in the american press that the F22 had external tank, but the close up images from the Rafale OSF clearly showed that the Raptor was in clean configuration....



Stephane
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9857 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 19):
The thing is, as repeated multiple times, basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) isn't about aircraft performance, its about pilot skill.

You can think what you want and let others think what they want.

I personally think your statement is over simplistic and that aircraft performance is equally as important as pilot skills...



Stephane
User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9856 times:

PB,

Is there any scenario for you, that you can envision, where a Lockheed designed product, loses the day to someone else? Your posts are so Lockheed supportive, it's fanatical. You go so far as to make up derogatory stories on competing products. Can you answer my question?

On another note, if you would bother to read your link, you would see it does not support your statement.

[Edited 2013-06-26 00:37:28]

User currently offlinetommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9847 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 21):
I personally think your statement is over simplistic and that aircraft performance is equally as important as pilot skills...

I concur, otherwise we would still be flying the F-86 with huge success. PB.s statements also denigrate the F-22 pilots unjustly, IMHO.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9844 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 21):
You can think what you want and let others think what they want.

I personally think your statement is over simplistic and that aircraft performance is equally as important as pilot skills...

Not really, otherwise, F-22's flown by regular or new pilots would not be beaten by instructor pilots flying aggressor in T-38 Talon's... now, would you argue that the T-38 Talon is a equal or better than the F-22? Nope. It's the skill of the pilot that counts.


25 tommytoyz : Yes really, because again, you have no idea what all the parameters were. You make personal assumptions you pass as fact. But you don't know all the
26 ThePointblank : A T-38 Talon is the USAF's leading jet trainer. It's the aircraft where jet fighter pilots learn how to handle a high performance jet fighter before
27 flagon : I think we all agree with that. I would add it is very important that the pilot knows by heart the potential and performance of its plane, and on tha
28 flagon : That does not negate the fact that aircraft performances is very important... providing that the pilot knows how to use them, and in adequation with
29 Post contains images ThePointblank : Good. I'm glad we can agree. Notice how the pilot said that he didn't even see the F-22's until one was on his rear taking a gun shot at him as the r
30 spudh : I would assume that the drop tanks on the F-22 are not there to carry fuel at all (why would they be with the internal fuel capacity of the F-22 bein
31 tommytoyz : You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say pilot performance is key and here you say aircraft performance is key, depending on certain paramete
32 tommytoyz : The video shows the F-22 clean with no drop tanks.
33 flagon : Correct At 1min 36sec, the video shows a snapshot of the Rafale OSF showing the Raptor during that very dogfight. It can be seen that the Raptor did
34 ThePointblank : Pay attention to what I said. I indicated that pilot skill becomes the predominant factor in BFM, which is close in, visual combat. Once you move out
35 tommytoyz : Mr. Lockheed: The topic is F-22 pilots. On that, it is a fact that they are well trained and never new right out of flight training. Again, happened o
36 spudh : How can you draw that conclusion from the video? My french is fairly rudimentary, but my english is a little better so you might understand why I'm b
37 ALTF4 : Calm down. I said I didn't know much about it. No need to spout stuff about life tips of learning other languages. All I was saying was the only Engl
38 flagon : The video said the statement above was reported by the US press, the video then aims to demonstrate that this statement was inaccurate, and shows a s
39 flagon : My apologise... It was probably in clean configuration, but I would guess this is impossible to verify for sure, and to be honest, I don't think know
40 autothrust : That's not correct. At least not for the Typhoon, Where the Typhoon excels all other fighters is the super sonic manoeuvrability.
41 Post contains links cargotanker : Since 2011 UPT graduates, new Lts, have been assigned to F-22s. http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums...nd-assignment-nights/page__st__560 Not the bes
42 Acheron : I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that said numbers are skewed by the fact that most recent conflicts involve going up against a "country" wit
43 Post contains links cargotanker : Let me correct myself, this practice started in 2008. Better source: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123082508 Looks like UPT grads would do some
44 tommytoyz : No USAF pilot goes directly from graduating from UPT and hops directly into the F-22 as their next plane. They first get experience in the T-38 and t
45 Post contains links ThePointblank : They are only getting 5 weeks of advanced flight training before they get into the F-22: http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123082508 A instructor o
46 tommytoyz : Firstly, only those scoring at the top of their class in flight training even have a chance on the F-22. Secondly, it's more than only the 5 week F-1
47 Post contains links ThePointblank : Funny, because the basic course for introductory F-22 pilots from flight training is 335 academic hours, 205 academics events, 27 examinations, 50 so
48 tommytoyz : There is no maybe except in your mind, like X-47B non-folding wings, etc.....Even the article in your own link does not say what you claim. There is
49 cargotanker : I guess Pointblank and I made the mistake of assuming Tommytoyz was ever going to be wrong about anything. The bottom line is that new UPT gradautes
50 tommytoyz : That is not what I have repeatedly stated. I suggest you slowly re read my posts and clearly understand exactly what I did say in my posts. I never s
51 cargotanker : Yeah, like night flying, day and night landing, and air refueling. There's the recipe for making a great fighter pilot! Here's my question to you: ho
52 tommytoyz : I never said nor disagreed with the fact that an aggressor pilot would be the better pilot and the more experienced pilot or anything even remotely a
53 glideslope : Rafale: "I request to terminate, I request to terminate." Pretty much does it for me. Less cheese. More complex carbs.
54 Post contains images foxxray : Imagine if he had eaten less cheese just before flying ? It was not just one F22 but dozens that he could have shut down maybe ? And i heard that he
55 wingman : That's funny, only because growing up in Europe and having met hundreds of French people in my lifetime, I tend to generalize about your country in th
56 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Having served in the Persian Gulf back in '91, I can tell you the feeling is quite mutual. [Edited 2013-07-08 05:11:07]
57 checksixx : We train with our allies and (with the Raptor) simulate high threat aircraft. Sometimes the point isn't always to wipe the slate clean, but allow lear
58 tommytoyz : What safety concerns did this Rafale pilot throw out here, that you can see in this video?
59 checksixx : Just watch the video and the answer(s) is right in the HUD footage...
60 tommytoyz : It would be a lot easier if you would just tell us, instead of sending me on a Goose chase.
61 Post contains links ThePointblank : Rafale pilot broke 2 rules of engagements typical in this sort of exercise: 1. Stay above 10,000ft. The fight was over as soon as this rule was viola
62 Post contains images tommytoyz : Mr. Lockheed: 1. You have no way of knowing what the altitude and speed of the F-22 was 2. You don't know how to safely fly a Rafale 3. You are assumi
63 powerslide : Agreed, that honor goes to the Canard airshow tumblers from Europe and Russia.
64 flagon : I would like to see what messages the raptor HUD was showing to its pilot, maybe the message "you are dead" appeared a dozen of times? On a more seri
65 flagon : May I just share my humble translation from the text in french underneath the video which you kindly provided the link: " For information, the data h
66 Post contains links ThePointblank : Engagement was automatically over at 0:50 as the Rafale pilot broke ROE. What the Rafale pilot did afterwords was no longer part of the exercise. The
67 tommytoyz : You don't know what the Rules of Engagement were here in this exercise in the UAE. You assume to know so many things - you may want to step back from
68 ThePointblank : Standard ROE for BFM include 10,000ft floor, 150 knots minimum speed. That's what the US uses, and it is shared with many NATO and allied nations, in
69 checksixx : Well my post still stands. Never said the pilot didn't get the best of the F-22...he most certainly did. He certainly didn't do it safely and that was
70 flagon : That s all very interesting but that still does not tell us what the ROE were for this ATLC dog fight.... You keep confusing me, the video clearly sh
71 chuchoteur : ...don't know what the ROE were, but basically the outcome was a bunch of draws, one win for the F22 and one win for the Rafale. What that tells me is
72 ThePointblank : This is a safety ROE, and the US (with the French probably agreeing) to have these rules in place so pilots aren't accidentally killed. We don't know
73 tommytoyz : If ASEA radars, like those on the F-22 and F-35 become jammable or fooled in the future with new Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) and AESA jammer
74 Post contains links ThePointblank : BTW, most recent actual dogfights barely make it past the merge. When Vadm. Mark Fox's F/A-18 engaged, from "bandit hostile" to "bandit splashed" was
75 tommytoyz : When a fighter is vectored in to the bandit by AWACS, that is a big advantage. In an era of electronic countermeasures and jamming/spoofing in a non p
76 ThePointblank : Which just goes to show... what happens in the WVR fight is greatly affected by what happens in BVR. The WVR fight doesn't start in vacuum, but in BV
77 kanban : why is it that every thread a certain group touches ends up being a F-35 slugfest ad nauseum... ??? enough already. The topic is the F-22 video.
78 Ozair : Let us by clear about who is introducing the material! The F-35 is mentioned first in post 26 as part of a quote and has nothing to do with the F-35,
79 flagon : There are many things that we do not know, like for example what the ROE were in this engagement, so lets stop jumping on assumptions. I can see how
80 flagon : Well if I rely on Pointblank, this Rafale pilot does what most pilots have to do get a F22, a Mirage 2000, a F104, a F86, a Cessna or another Rafale
81 checksixx : I'm sorry...did you have a question or are you only able to give your opinion when quoting someone else?
82 sonic67 : So you are saying it is fake? Now that you say that it kind of seems that way.
83 kanban : I love it when the loser or loser's fan boys say "you cheated" ... yet in real action a pilot probably won't stick to the Duke of Kumquat's rules of e
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