Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Rnlaf F-35A Maiden Flight At NFW (video)  
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2776 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4918 times:

Here is some video I captured at NAS Fort Worth on June 27th of F-002, the second F-35A destined for the Netherlands, followed by some spirited touch and goes at the end.  

Apologies for quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT01eRjN3kk

[Edited 2013-06-29 08:24:42]


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4296 times:

Nice! I think that is the first footage I see of any of the two first F35A for RNLAF.

Do you know where to find the pictures the other guys were shooting?


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Great video KPDX, thanks!

Although I love this aircraft I really hope our government cancels it. It's a huge investment and the price per frame is not even known yet. More delays and additional cost increases are a real possibility.

Why not buy off-the-shelf Rafaele, Saab or EF2000?!



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2776 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Thanks guys.

I'm not a fan of the F-35 as well, but I think it is a cool looking plane. Was a treat to watch.  



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 3):
I'm not a fan of the F-35 as well, but I think it is a cool looking plane.

Completely agree with you, it looks awesome, especially the VTOL variant!



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineBigjKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 883 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 2):
Why not buy off-the-shelf Rafaele, Saab or EF2000?!

Because Rafale and Eurofighter are not any cheaper and the Gripen as it exist is old. The upgraded Gripen looks to be just as expensive as any of the other fighters being discussed.


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting BigjKU (Reply 5):
Because Rafale and Eurofighter are not any cheaper and the Gripen as it exist is old. The upgraded Gripen looks to be just as expensive as any of the other fighters being discussed.

I'm no expert, but how can you say those other options are not cheaper when the final price of the F-35 is not even known yet?

Also I find it hard to believe the Rafale is not less expensive than the much newer and very troubled F-35.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Also I find it hard to believe the Rafale is not less expensive than the much newer and very troubled F-35.

With the Rafale, the Dutch will have to dump all of their weapon inventory and purchase their French equivalents; and the French aren't known for being cheap on that front.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):

I'm no expert, but how can you say those other options are not cheaper when the final price of the F-35 is not even known yet?

Something tells me that the economies of scale of producing thousands of copies of a single fighter is very economical. Looking at some of the recent bids, the Rafale goes for around $90 million a copy, Eurofighter has gone above the $100 million a copy... starting to get the picture?


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3937 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):

With the Rafale, the Dutch will have to dump all of their weapon inventory and purchase their French equivalents; and the French aren't known for being cheap on that front.

Honest question as I really don't have a clue; French fighters cannot be equiped with the same weaponry as an F-35?

If no; the French are consistently more expensive? Do you have some numbers on that?

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
Something tells me that the economies of scale of producing thousands of copies of a single fighter is very economical.

I would agree, but they still don't seem to be able to tell what the final price per frame will be, correct?


Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
Looking at some of the recent bids, the Rafale goes for around $90 million a copy, Eurofighter has gone above the $100 million a copy... starting to get the picture?

So any clue on what the F-35 will be priced at?


Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
starting to get the picture?


To be honest, no, not really.


In the Netherlands we have a long history of government/city counsels spending millions (sometimes even billions) on failing projects (the Fyra, Combino, Betuwe-line), for the non-informed (like myself) the JSF project seems to be steaming hard in the same direction; cost overruns, delays and a lot of unknowns....

Also it has been written in the press that the performance-wise the F-35 is also being pulled back. IIRC the constant G-turn limit has been lowered to something around 4 or 5G, how does that compare to a Rafale for example? And is this a temporary restriction?

I seem to get the impression from the replies of Pointblank and BigjKU that this worrying is nonsense...is it?

[Edited 2013-07-09 03:13:49]


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 8):
In the Netherlands we have a long history of government/city counsels spending millions (sometimes even billions) on failing projects

Just like most governments in the world.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3899 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 9):
Just like most governments in the world.

Yes indeed, your point being?



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 10):
Yes indeed, your point being?

That it is is probably irrelevant here.

I agree though that the Dutch participation in the JSF, with too small a share to have any real influence, was not a smart move, whether or not it is the best aircraft to buy in the end.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 8):
So any clue on what the F-35 will be priced at?

It is not a complete system, there are still bugs to fix and cost savings to be realized. One thing you can count on, the price will continue to come down for pretty much the entire production run. So, much cheaper than the development frames and LRIP frames, more expensive than 4th gen fighters, but pretty close to the high end models like the F-15SE, Typhoon, F/A-18E. Another thing to bare in mind is that a lot of the sensors integrated into the F-35 are optional and hung outside on other fighters. So once you order the extra parts for the 4.5 gen fighters... you are in the same ballpark.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 8):
I seem to get the impression from the replies of Pointblank and BigjKU that this worrying is nonsense...is it?

Just wait, there are a few who are not fans of the F-35 and will paint a much darker pitcher. F-35 threads usually get locked after 2-3 members go into lengthy numbers and debates, no one comes out on top, and it turns into a cat fight.


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 11):
That it is is probably irrelevant here.



I thought so, that other governments make the same mistakes doesn't mean it is any less bad or that our government should not be held accountable.

My distrust of the government on complex projects has become so big I almost cannot believe there is any merit in the decision to join the JSF project. But I'll admit it's just a gut-feeling.


(Although I had the same feeling with the Fyra   )

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 11):
whether or not it is the best aircraft to buy in the end.



I've read an article in (I believe) Piloot & Vliegtuig a while back where a high ranking official of the Dutch Air force made a compelling case for the JSF, cannot remember his arguments but they seemed to be valid. But I couldn't shake the feeling this officer just wanted the newest and most modern toy and refused to see a case for (potentially) cheaper options.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 12):
It is not a complete system, there are still bugs to fix and cost savings to be realized. One thing you can count on, the price will continue to come down for pretty much the entire production run.

I don't doubt that, but it feels a bit weird we are buying for $4 billion worth of JSF but we don't know how many we will get.

Also, when in the production run are the Dutch slots? If they are in the initial batch don't we run the risk on being to early for the ecnomics of scale to kick in?

Quoting Oroka (Reply 12):

Another thing to bare in mind is that a lot of the sensors integrated into the F-35 are optional and hung outside on other fighters. So once you order the extra parts for the 4.5 gen fighters... you are in the same ballpark.



Ok thanks, did not know that.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 12):
Just wait, there are a few who are not fans of the F-35 and will paint a much darker pitcher. F-35 threads usually get locked after 2-3 members go into lengthy numbers and debates, no one comes out on top, and it turns into a cat fight.

Ok   , let's hope my gut is mistaken   As I said before, it looks awesome.

PS: what's the deal with the performance restrictions? Are these temporary? Or will the final JSF be handicapped in some form?



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 4006 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3864 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 13):
I've read an article in (I believe) Piloot & Vliegtuig a while back where a high ranking official of the Dutch Air force made a compelling case for the JSF, cannot remember his arguments but they seemed to be valid. But I couldn't shake the feeling this officer just wanted the newest and most modern toy and refused to see a case for (potentially) cheaper options.

Yes, the Dutch air force have wanted the JSF - or any F-16 replacement the US would come forward with, I think - from day one, and even opened a project bureau in Washington very early on. They have certainly been very biased, whatever you think of the eventual F-35 - I'm not too sure myself.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 13):
PS: what's the deal with the performance restrictions?

Im certainly no expert, but from what I understand a lot of it is waiting on the software.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 13):
Are these temporary? Or will the final JSF be handicapped in some form?

Depends who you ask. Some people buy the official story, some scream its all fabrications because past specs, numbers, dates have slipped (quite a bit).

It is all how you look at it. No, it will never match a F-22, no it could never beat a F-14 in a dog fight, it will never be hypersonic or visit the ISS either. The F-35 is a grapefruit in an orange fight. There is no fighter out there that it can be compared directly too. It has 2 modes, stealth, and dirty. Stealth, it will go nearly as far as current fighters that are hanging external tanks AND still have an internal load of weapons. Dirty, it will lose the stealth capacity but carry more payload.

People like to compare a very dirty and heavily loaded 4th gen fighter to the clean stealthy F-35, which is not fair because the F-35 can go into well defended airspace while gen 4.5s cant, or can with a large escort. A fair oranges to oranges is to match up say a block 52 F-16C to a F-35A. F-16 is hobbled when it comes to anything that requires stealth. The F-35 cant sustain a turn like the F-16 can, which is important when it comes to a dog fight. The thing is, most engagements these days (ie last 20 years) has been beyond visual range. It comes down to who sees who first, in that case the F-35 will win, save some blunders by the pilot or some clever tricks by the enemy. Still, the F-35 is no slouch in a dogfight, the pilot just has to use tactics that is more than just a turning fight.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 15):
Im certainly no expert, but from what I understand a lot of it is waiting on the software.

Some of it is software, rest is testing and re-examining the data. For example, the sustained G performance spec is being hampered by higher than expected heat on the rear tail surfaces, and there could be more tweaks back there, such as switching to higher-temperature materials or other types of tweaks.

Remember the range spec which was initially degraded by a few miles? They managed to recover the range (and then some) later on through more testing.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 8):
Honest question as I really don't have a clue; French fighters cannot be equiped with the same weaponry as an F-35?

Oui. Unless you want to pay for integration and testing.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 8):

If no; the French are consistently more expensive? Do you have some numbers on that?

The French get you in the support contracts; an article a while back in Taiwan reported that the production and procurement costs of the ground service stations of the F-16 was around NT$2.5 million (US$78,000), while the Mirage 2000-5 was NT$7.5 million (US$234,000). In other words, the cost of a Mirage 2000-5 ground service station is three times that of the F-16.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 8):
So any clue on what the F-35 will be priced at?

Full rate production F-35A's are expected to be around $75 million dollars in FY2012 dollars...
http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospa...3/06/20/paris-air-show-day-3/8298/

Now, if you adjust that for inflation back to 2005 using the Consumer Price Index, you get just under $65 million a copy, which was the originally quoted and bandied about price by LM for a F-35A.... hmm...


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3871 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3737 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Guys... the thread is about a maiden flight and is not an opening to rehash everything good or bad, real or imagined about the program.. That's what gets decent informational/ progress threads shut down.

User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1670 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 16):

Thanks Pointblank, very informative!

Quoting kanban (Reply 17):
That's what gets decent informational/ progress threads shut down.

My apologies for asking OT questions, but IMHO this is a very decent and informative thread. I'm no regular to this part and missed the other threads about this subject.



Live From Amsterdam!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Rnlaf F-35A Maiden Flight At NFW (video)
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
First Flight Of China's New Stealth Fighter J-31! posted Wed Oct 31 2012 13:37:08 by justinlee
60th Anniversary Of B-52 First Flight posted Sun Apr 15 2012 18:50:46 by Avnut43
A-4 Fuel Tank Desintegrates In-Flight *Video* posted Thu Jun 23 2011 09:07:21 by FlexJetOKC
Dragon First Flight posted Wed Dec 8 2010 11:28:51 by connies4ever
H-4 Hercules Makes First Flight posted Tue Nov 2 2010 10:06:31 by KC135TopBoom
F-15SE Makes First Flight posted Sat Jul 10 2010 07:36:51 by KC135TopBoom
Canadian Lysander First Flight Photos posted Wed Jun 30 2010 17:50:17 by egronenthal
KHI C-X First Flight Update... posted Sat Jan 2 2010 06:07:20 by Britjap
A400M First Flight Dec 11th posted Wed Dec 9 2009 04:22:50 by R2rho
Airbus A400M First Flight & Future Prospects posted Tue Nov 17 2009 01:13:44 by Keesje

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format