trex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 5430 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7610 times:
This is ridiculous and as a Navy academy parent and taxpayer I am appalled. The USN/USMC booted out over a quarter of their naval academy grads in flight school 2 years ago (and a third of the USNA class go to flight school, half from USAFA) as they had a "surplus" in the training pipeline. These kids have no further service obligation unlike their parents generation who would be sent as surface warfare officers to the ships to pay off the rest of their 5 years for their service academy education.
We spend what over 400K to put someone through the service academy and today we put them out into civvy street when they are surplus to one service's requirements and another service is offering huge bonuses! They couldn't cross commission them over to the AF??? Or does the AF think their brains have been too contaminated by Navy/Marine thoughts to ever make them decent air force pilots?
And don't even ask me about their medical corps mess. The navy only sends half the people AF and Army send to med school and then all 3 services offer huge sign up bonuses to civvy doctors (last one I heard about was almost 250K for 4 years for army psychiatrists, I'd love to know what they are offering for trauma surgeons, anesthesiologists!!) to sign up for a few years when in every service academy class, especially in the navy, some of their best academic students leave after the 2nd year to pursue medicine through the civilian route as they dont want to deal with the vagaries of service assignment. (So you didn't get selected as the 10 out of 1100 for med corps, but guess what, your grades are SOOO good you WILL go to nuclear power school- equivalent to a masters in nuke engineering done in 6-9 months and go to subs or surface nuclear billets- too bad your second choice was aviation or marines or anything else, there is zero correlation with how good your grades are at the academy and how good a pilot, marine, ship officer you are but you will do GREAT at nuke power school with straight A grades in engineering and science classes! Let the Chinese and Arabic linguists/history major Rhodes scholars go off to Oxford for 2 years, we need you at Nuke school tomorrow! They can join the fleet/marines anytime before the second coming of Christ! Oh, BTW, this year you're in luck we filled the sub billets this year as the girls still think its neat they can finally go on a sub - that leaves surface nuclear only for your career! And for the carrot there is the highest sign up bonus for any academy service assignment and heck we may even send you to MIT or some other great school for a real masters before joining the fleet- after all its ONLY a 5 year requirement to do something you have zero interest in!!)
Yet if they kept these navy kids on who are top of their class by sending the same number of people as Army and AF to med school they will get twice as long out of them as any civilian doctor (5 years for service academy pay back PLUS 4 to 6 years for med school AFTER they finish their specialty training residency as opposed to 4 years for any civvy doctor who signs up).
I thought the budget was a problem these days. You'd never know it by the way they are doing stuff like this!
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7805 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7594 times:
The proposal is only for a maximum of 130 fighter pilots.
It does not include the USAF and USN transport pilots which are the primary military-airline pilots.
The proposal is only for experienced pilots - that means at least 6 years of USAF fighter experience.
The program has been in place and used continuously for a few pilots in certain aircraft types since 1989.
The program is normal US military pay, flight pay and up to $25,000 per year retention bonus.
The 'bonus' is paid yearly and the person has to sign a NINE year contract to be eligible for the bonus. If the person leaves the military early - they have to pay it all back.
If the pilot loses flying status eligibility - the bonus stops but the nine year contract might still apply.
Quoting trex8 (Reply 4): as they had a "surplus" in the training pipeline.
This program isn't for the training pipeline pilots - it is for the experienced pilots / the trainers of those pipeline young men and women when they get to the experience level to become actual fighter pilots.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 16559 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7551 times:
Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 1): From the UK is seems that this job might be better suited to the single man/woman.
The military does what they can, but the military life is a tough one for families. Military families in the US have what amounts to their own subculture.
Quoting trex8 (Reply 4): (last one I heard about was almost 250K for 4 years for army psychiatrists, I'd love to know what they are offering for trauma surgeons, anesthesiologists!!)
...because surgeons grow on trees? Hell, for that matter, what about pilots? And, to do a little math, $250k over four years is $62,500 per year. Better than a resident, but for a fully trained doctor that's maybe a tenth of what they might be paid otherwise.
The military is like any other employer: if you want highly trained professionals you're going to have to pay them.
Quoting trex8 (Reply 4): they dont want to deal with the vagaries of service assignment.
The military quality of life doesn't suit everybody, hence they may have to pay a premium. No different than working on an oil rig, for example.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
trex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 5430 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7442 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6): because surgeons grow on trees? Hell, for that matter, what about pilots? And, to do a little math, $250k over four years is $62,500 per year. Better than a resident, but for a fully trained doctor that's maybe a tenth of what they might be paid otherwise.
Thats just the sign up bonus. They will come in as O3 at lowest an dleave at O4 if not higher and military docs also get special pay bonuses for being board certified and being in scarce specialties. In this day when lots of fresh med school graduates want to be employed by a big organization and have fixed hours- 4 years with Uncle Sam AND a quarter million bonus to pay off your student loans is going to be attractive. I can tell you there are very few fresh "fully trained docs" getting anywhere close to 500K these days or even half that. Those days are long gone with the way insurance companies and medicare reimburse the last decade. Not if the hospital wants to stay afloat anyway!
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6): The military quality of life doesn't suit everybody, hence they may have to pay a premium. No different than working on an oil rig, for example.
It isn't the quality of life , its the reality that service selection for the academy graduates is really service assignment despite all the PR they were sold on when they were "recruited" to apply that they have some choice and that working hard and being a good cadet/mid will be rewarded . Here the navy are rewarding their best by drafting them for a specialty no one else is signing up for these days. If you don't mind doing subs or being a reactor engineer when you went there to fly or be a marine thats fine. Despite what the academy claims publicly the class order of merit is always subject to service requirements - which it should be - it is the military and not a fancy employment agency for high achieving college grads- but they aren't exactly totally upfront to the kids about it.
I don't have a problem with what they do, when I did my time quarter century + ago I didn' t have any expectations of anything! Its just these days the academies claim to the cadet/mids they will get x and in fact its y, and they really knew it would be y all along.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5): This program isn't for the training pipeline pilots - it is for the experienced pilots / the trainers of those pipeline young men and women when they get to the experience level to become actual fighter pilots.
True but those 2010 grads who got riffed - unless you had a language where presumably they may want you eventually at a surface warfare intelligence billet- should be at fleet replacement units by now . And my beef is , they don't even want these kids to do some time in the reserves or something to pay back their country for their education? For the kids who got sent to Pensacola, pay back isn't supposed to begin till they get their wings. If they get riffed before that happens, as happened here, and have no service obligation whatsoever, what message does that send to the future potential officer corps?
The problem the navy had is supposedly all those guys who were up to 20 years or their 7 year post winging obligation during the GFC were not leaving at the rate normally expected. If the AF are keeping "old timers" on won't this have a knock on effect on the young USAFA/ROTC grads coming through the pipeline?? Hopefully the Air Force keeps them for the Chair Force unlike the navy! But with sequestration and budget cuts and the usual Pentagon stupidity I'm not counting on anything which is logical!
solarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6868 times:
Quoting trex8 (Reply 7): This program isn't for the training pipeline pilots - it is for the experienced pilots / the trainers of those pipeline young men and women when they get to the experience level to become actual fighter pilots.
I really don't understand why its so hard for the USAF. Back in my day I was dying to fly F-15 s and it was basically impossible to get in. You needed great High School Academics, probably had to go to the academy, natural 20/20 vision, stringent physical requirements etc. Its not the kind of job you can do for 20 + years either IMO. They should expected 10 years from most pilots. Whatever costs it takes to produce a new crop of fighter jocks that are well trained and are in their prime years (22-42) is part of the game. Having great pilots is simply essential and they are a great feeder group for the US airline industry and NASA.
Its also extremely difficult to train new pilots quickly in the event of a war. Part of the reason Japan suffered greatly in WWII is they simply lost their trained pilots. Having a few thousand retired but qualified pilots on the bench in the event of a major war isn't such a bad thing if you ask me. The defense budget is 600B. I am sure they can find a few extra million to make it happen.
The decreasing size of the USAF and other demands have made the fighter pilot job, and also other pilots jobs, a lot more unpleasant work, a lot more time away from home and family, and more dangerous.
The net result is that pilots at the 8-12 year mark are making a decision to leave the USAF at a higher rate than the USAF needs to keep the trainers, the experienced pilots in uniform.
A financial incentive to say - which comes down to a little less than $500 per week - is something the USAF is trying to retain those mid-rank pilots.
The USAF, and the USN, both have many more applicants for the training programs - and continue to be very highly selective. Those are not the pilots who will receive the bonus.
Ozair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 1264 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6824 times:
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9): A financial incentive to say - which comes down to a little less than $500 per week - is something the USAF is trying to retain those mid-rank pilots.
It costs millions of dollars to train these guys and the incentive bonus probably equates to between 5-10 hours of the cost of flying a fighter jet, over a 10 year period. It shouldn't be hard to see this is simply good personnel management.