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A400M Turkish AF  
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1914 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 8436 times:

The A400M MSN 009 had its first flight on August 9th from Sevilla.
It's the first one for the Turkish AF. Delivery planned before year's end (but which one? No, seriously, the program seems back on track).
Turkey ordered 10 A400M.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8357 times:

Press release and picture here:

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/PressC...Air-Force-makes-maiden-flight.aspx

Video here:

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/Multimedia/A400MVideoGallery.aspx



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8298 times:

Hi-res picture at:

http://airbus.hosting.augure.com/Aug...3B-9E90-876750B2F402/MSN9%20FF.jpg

She could do with a lick of paint, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8230 times:
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Hell, even without paint, she's still a beautiful aircraft. Love them turbo props! I'd still love to see one in US colors, yeah, I know, never happen, but I can still dream.

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4315 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

What are those black panels on the side of the fuselage just forward of the wing?


I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8163 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hell, even without paint, she's still a beautiful aircraft.

Dude, you're on my RU list so it pains me to say she really ain't that good looking without paint... However with or without paint, she's a great asset to have and a very impressive technical achievement. Throw a little paint on her and I'll agree about the beautiful part!  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8081 times:

Quoting redflyer (Reply 4):
What are those black panels on the side of the fuselage just forward of the wing?

armor plating to cater for a prop burst, I believe...


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 7, posted (11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 7572 times:

It's now in paint.

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/Portals/0/EasyGalleryImages/1/13/A400M%20TuAF%20FF51366resz.JPG



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinemrg From Germany, joined Jul 2013, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7524 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'd still love to see one in US colors, yeah, I know, never happen, but I can still dream

Speak to your Congressman, the Spanish and the Germans might make him an offer he can't refuse  

Seriously, 25 A400Ms will relieve your C-17 fleet of fatigue-inducing strip landings. The Marines won't have to spend all day grading strips so that the C-17s can land at night.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

First A400M for the Turkish Air Force is ready for delivery and is waiting for acceptance, although the process is very complicated.

http://twitter.com/Rotorfocus/status/438581451563343872
http://twitter.com/ChDefense/status/438591887419924480
http://twitter.com/vguillermard/status/438598863222738944

Quote:
Handover of @AirbusGroup A400M to Turkey is a an "increasingly unbearable situation," says Tom Enders
Quote:
Situation on Turkish first A400M "increasingly unacceptable", aircraft ready to fly, still bargaining about delivery process.

Another nice view of the aircraft:


Turkish Atlas by Tony Osborne - Rotorfocus, on Flickr



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (5 months 7 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

The Turkish delay also threatens production ramp-up:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...aking-a400m-threatens-ramp-up.html



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 months 6 hours ago) and read 3880 times:

Quoting mrg (Reply 8):
Speak to your Congressman, the Spanish and the Germans might make him an offer he can't refuse

Seriously, 25 A400Ms will relieve your C-17 fleet of fatigue-inducing strip landings. The Marines won't have to spend all day grading strips so that the C-17s can land at night.

Be serious. The US just spent hundreds of millions of dollars putting new wings on A-10s that extend service life to 2040 and now they are saying they are going to retire them. Your suggestion makes a bit of sense, which surely means it will be rejected by Washington.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Do any of our Turkish members know what this delay is about?


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24840 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3644 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 9):
First A400M for the Turkish Air Force is ready for delivery and is waiting for acceptance, although the process is very complicated.

Actually the aircraft was to be have been ready following the Dubai Air Show for delivery, and Turkish pilots even went to Seville to pick the airframe up, but after inspections delivery was refused.

Per statement made by Turkish defense ministry, EADS was not in compliance with its contractual terms, and until they become so, Turkey would not accept the aircraft.

In addition its understood EADS has been unable yet fully stock the required spare parts inventory at Konya AB, and there remains some technical document yet to produced.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 13):
Per statement made by Turkish defense ministry, EADS was not in compliance with its contractual terms, and until they become so, Turkey would not accept the aircraft.

In addition its understood EADS has been unable yet fully stock the required spare parts inventory at Konya AB, and there remains some technical document yet to produced.

Which is awfully convenient because the Turkish air force is absolutely not ready to accept and operate the type, the facilities at Konya AB are (I am told) quite bare and yet to be stocked with a lot of basic aircraft handling and support items, let alone spares.
Looks like they're also running behind schedule...


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1299 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 14):
facilities at Konya AB are (I am told) quite bare and yet to be stocked with a lot of basic aircraft handling and support items, let alone spares.

Much of it to be prepared by Airbus !

The Turks have been ready for a long time. They even have too many pilots trained which result in them lose qualification due non delivery of aircraft. Large cadre of mechanics also have been trained long ago. (large group finished last Spetember)


You might remember France also threatened not to take the aircraft with EADS provided required maintenance support in place.

http://fr.advfn.com/actualites/Franc...rs-On-A400-Million-C_49509487.html


People might not remember but EADS made sales of these aircraft including commitment in regards cost and support guarantees, very similar to commercial aircraft but its now having issue providing this.

Frankly, I hope the Airbus valuable lessons in government contracting and that selling military aircraft is not like selling an A320, especially when government procurement policy will hold manufacturers responsible to the smallest clause in the contract.
To satisfy this either 1) Airbus must become fully compliant (which will cost money/time), 2) Airbus must pay additional compensation, or credit to clients for them to accept with contract violations in place.

Unfortunately quite a mishandled program in many areas. I have too many sad stories to share.

So yes Mr. Enders should be frustrated, but its far from solely customer driven.


User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 15):
The Turks have been ready for a long time.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 15):
So yes Mr. Enders should be frustrated, but its far from solely customer driven.

The Turkish Minstry of Defense simply responded last week that the ac is not taken-up because she does not meet the terms of the contract as far as performances are concerned.
There is therefore a dis-agreement about what "operational" means.
Airbus means that the ac is operational and that her capabilities will be gradually extended. Turkey means that all capabilities should be available upon delivery.
That smells arguing for compensation. So "barganing" is most probably the right word.


User currently offlinejollo From Italy, joined Aug 2011, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3173 times:

Quoting breiz (Reply 16):
capabilities will be gradually extended

Ah, the devil is in the details... does anyone know what capabilities scheduled for IOC the Turks found missing and Airbus plans to deliver later on?

Quote:

IOC : strategic transport and medevac missions
SOC 1 : tactical mission capable FMS, high and low air delivery - up to sixteen tons in one pack, initial protection package ( passive alerting and flares )
SOC 1.5 : FMS mods for initial air refuelling capability and complete protection package.
SOC 2 and 2.5 : full tanker-capability. Two SOCs are concerned because two delivery systems are considered : underwing nacelles and/or fuelingt pallets.
SOC 3 : automatic terrain-following and navigation system required by the Luftwaffe.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

SOC1.5 is scheduled for the end of 2014.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinejollo From Italy, joined Aug 2011, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
SOC1.5 is scheduled for the end of 2014.

Yes but... IIRC this first a/c for Turkey is being delivered to IOC*. The fact the the aircraft is scheduled for upgrade to SOC 1.5 in just a few months isn't a valid reason for not accepting delivery today. Apparently, Turkish AF found (or claims to have found) items not complying with the agreed delivery standard, that is, IOC. Which items?

(* IOC = Initial Operational Capability: the name itself implies that's not expected to be a *full* operational capability).


User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2920 times:

Quoting jollo (Reply 19):
Turkish AF found (or claims to have found) items not complying with the agreed delivery standard, that is, IOC. Which items?

It all depends on the big and small font wording in the contract. We don't know what the Turkish AF was initially promised.
A French article in Feb 2014 indicated that tests were to start in the coming weeks about paratroopers dropping and in-flight refueling.
The first Turkish A400M was supposed to be part of the paratroopers exercises.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting jollo (Reply 19):
Yes but... IIRC this first a/c for Turkey is being delivered to IOC*. The fact the the aircraft is scheduled for upgrade to SOC 1.5 in just a few months isn't a valid reason for not accepting delivery today. Apparently, Turkish AF found (or claims to have found) items not complying with the agreed delivery standard, that is, IOC. Which items?

I see. I tend to agree, now the question remains what are the real issues? I guess we will never know.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinejollo From Italy, joined Aug 2011, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

Quoting breiz (Reply 20):
A French article in Feb 2014 indicated that tests were to start in the coming weeks about paratroopers dropping and in-flight refueling.
The first Turkish A400M was supposed to be part of the paratroopers exercises.

I'm venturing a guess: IIRC, according to the last negotiated schedule the first Turkish AF example should have been delivered before year end 2013 at IOC level. Since delivery is late, Turkey might be demanding capabilities planned for SOC 1 right now. I'm not saying this would be an unreasonable position, but it would indeed look like a bargaining chip on the table. Just a guess, however!

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 21):
now the question remains what are the real issues? I guess we will never know.

Unless we have an insider willing to leak a few tidbits, I'm afraid we won't...


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 23, posted (4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting breiz (Reply 20):
A French article in Feb 2014 indicated that tests were to start in the coming weeks about paratroopers dropping and in-flight refueling.
The first Turkish A400M was supposed to be part of the paratroopers exercises.

First airdrop trials have been successfully completed.

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/PressC...ompletes-first-airdrop-trials.aspx


Airbus A400M successfully completes first airdrop trials by Airbus Group, on Flickr

More to follow; this should bring delivery one step closer.



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

1st aircraft delivered to the Turkish AF today, according to the Airbus Group Facebook page.

User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 10716 posts, RR: 31
Reply 25, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Well that went even quicker than expected.


Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24840 posts, RR: 46
Reply 26, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1604 times:

According to Turkish media, EADS has agreed to increase placement of work and purchase of components from Turkish companies over the next 10 years by additional € 1billion - which is estimated to generate 500 jobs and 4 million man hours.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
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