tommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7711 times:
The laugh here is that the F-15SE was only meant as sparring partner for the almighty F-35 to make an appearance of a competition to buy the F-35. Even in such a biased competition, the F-35 loses.
Internationally, the F-35 is having a very tough time selling, even to partner nations. I think the F-15SE will break through and sell to more nations now, IMHO. With the new advanced radar and electronics and it's hauling capability, it's tough to beat, especially for the price.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 534 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (2 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7690 times:
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 7): Internationally, the F-35 is having a very tough time selling
Funny, not one partner nation has dropped out. If anything, more nations have signed onto the program since the launch. Countries like Canada, and their hippy moronic US-Will-Protect-us mantra, are idiots and are only stalling the inevitable F35 orders.
What price is that? How much extra will all the bells and whistles cost countries that select the F15SE? The base, clean SE is cheaper than the F35, but once you start adding avionics, weapons, support, etc that price, per airframe climbs substantially.
The biggest operator is without question the US and they aren't buying into the F15SE, that is what counts the most.
j.mo From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 653 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7548 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 9): The biggest operator is without question the US and they aren't buying into the F15SE, that is what counts the most.
That doesn't make it a bad choice and may in fact make the opposite true. The USAF likes to buy new shiny (stealth) toys. They are not in the businees of getting the best bang for their buck. They want the newest, most advanced airframe packed with as much science fiction as possible. Even if we only buy 22 of them or 186 of them.
Do you really think the DOD will end up buying 1,700 F-35's? The number was nearly 2,900 10 years ago.
What is the difference between Fighter pilots and God? God never thought he was a fighter pilot.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 534 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7365 times:
Quoting j.mo (Reply 11): They are not in the businees of getting the best bang for their buck.
No, they are in the business of killing people while minimizing losses on their own side. Right now the F-35 is the most survivable aircraft to modern defence systems, if it wasn't then the F-15SE would eating up its orders, but it isn't.
j.mo From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 653 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7342 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 13): No, they are in the business of killing people while minimizing losses on their own side. Right now the F-35 is the most survivable aircraft to modern defence systems, if it wasn't then the F-15SE would eating up its orders, but it isn't.
Except for this pesky technology that was shown off at MAKS this year...
tommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7285 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 13): Right now the F-35 is the most survivable aircraft to modern defence systems, if it wasn't then the F-15SE would eating up its orders, but it isn't.
Right now the F-35 can do no such thing. Its not even in service yet and can't even shoot. Nor dive, nor do many things. It's design is still evolving and changing as we speak. Secondly the F-15SE has only been officially offered to S Korea - and they ate up F-35 orders in that one competition.
So one can say that in every head to head competition between the F-35 and the F-15SE, the F-15SE won.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 534 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (2 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6838 times:
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 16): So one can say that in every head to head competition between the F-35 and the F-15SE, the F-15SE won.
The F-15SE hasn't won anything. Going by your own logic, until the contracts have been signed and jets start landing in South Korea the F35 is still in contention. The Silent Eagle is nothing more than a 1970's aircraft still under development, no wonder why many in Korea are upset with this decision. The F-15K isn't cheap to operate as the SK's have learned, so does anyone seriously think a F-15SE would be cheaper? Hell no. Boeing's management would be criminally negligent if they didn't at least try, but their current fighter jet products are slowly fading into history.
Quote: SEOUL (Reuters) - Boeing Co (NYS:BA) is frontrunner to win one of the world's biggest defence deals of the year on Tuesday when South Korea names the winner of an 8.3 trillion won ($7.7 billion) fighter jet tender, with its F-15 Silent Eagle the only candidate within budget.
There is, however, a possibility the decision could be postponed or re-tendered due to concerns the Boeing lacks the stealth capabilities of more modern aircraft, a source who has direct knowledge of the deliberations told Reuters.
Boeing's F-15 Silent Eagle is the only candidate within budget. According to South Korean law, only under-budget bids can be selected, leaving Boeing in the box seat unless a new tender is called.
Bids by rival Lockheed Martin Corp's (NYS:LMT) F-35A and Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon were both over budget.
"It looks like a 50/50 chance (for Boeing)... There is strong opposition (for the F-15SE) from the military establishment, experts and conservatives," said the source, who declined to be named due to sensitivity of the subject.
Fifteen former air force chiefs and some lawmakers have opposed the selection of Boeing's F-15SE.
Sources say the F-35A scored highest score out the three bids in a comprehensive evaluation carried out earlier this month.
If a decision is postponed, the committee might delay deliberations on the programme until its next meeting about a month from now, the source with direct knowledge of the deliberations said.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 860 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6114 times:
Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 23): of course, the bidding didn't go as LM wanted so lets redo it so that they can win the next time.
I frankly don't think that is it as all. Just in the last two articles posted you can see the issue at hand. The F-35 scored the highest in their competitive evaluation which they freely admit. They also admit that the stealth requirements for the purchase were relaxed to make it "more fair" to the competitors. What they really means is that to get other competitors to be able to bid they had to bring down that requirement, not that operational concerns which dictated it in the first place had changed.
The complaints about this one by the military were really quite on point in my view. There should be a balance of capability and cost in the assessment and it seems like DAPA got away from that at the end and basically made the decision on price. That may be right or it may be wrong but it is hardly unreasonable to disagree with how the process was going down. It seems that a proper process would debate the price delta between the two options and make a decision accordingly.
People need to back away from the LM as some sort of boogeyman narrative to a degree. Boeing sells a ton of stuff to Korea and has plenty of influence there as well.
25 bikerthai: Well, looks like they are back to the drawing board. I don't blame them for wanting Stealth. But having played their hands, now they will be beholden
26 wingman: Unreal..it does beg the question, how crappy is this F35 that everyone wants some? Every thread I read on this plane has the crowds roaring its critic
27 BigJKU: To me the big tipping point was Japan. Yes, they tend to buy US weapons but this would have been a great time to move away from the US because they g
28 ThePointblank: I think this was the crux of the argument. Somehow, 15% of the evaluation criteria suddenly overrode every other evaluation criteria in this tender.
29 bikerthai: And that recent story about the F-22 sneaking up on the Iranian F-4 sure do promote the principles of Stealth. Nothing like good PR to get everyone kn
30 BigJKU: A big part of the problem with this for other types is that there are no really good cheaper answers. Is the F-35 over budget? Undoubtedly. Are there
31 tommytoyz: As to re-tendering the competition, unless S. Korea substantially raises the budget for the 60 planes, the result will be the same over and over. Perh
32 bikerthai: I read "they want stealth". So I don't think the Typhoon will have a chance even against the Pseudo Stealth Eagle. Yes but if they stop thinking abou
33 tommytoyz: Looks like it is official. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...south-korean-jet-fighter-deal.html Why do they even have a competition, if they igno
34 silentbob: They'll just get the US government to underwrite some of the cost.
35 tommytoyz: Doubt it. They'll just have to be happy with 26 or so F-35s, if they follow in Holland's footsteps. It'll also be crazy expensive to amortize the sup
36 powerslide: Does Boeing still make a single-seat F15?
37 ThePointblank: It was a 'competition' in all but name. There was clearly one preferred option from the get go (F-35), but they were essentially trying to push a squ
38 solarflyer22: Maybe they should buy the old F-117As out in the desert. I always felt those were retired much too early. Their RCS might even be lower than JSF.
39 silentbob: Wasn't the upkeep on them painfully arduous? I thought the RAM coating required a lot of care on the 117.
40 ThePointblank: On top of that, South Korea wants air to air capabilities as well, not just a bomber. Remember that South Korea isn't all that friendly with China an
41 gipsy: It's a bit like Fb. All are there so you have to join too. It was a brilliant stunt pulled off by LM. Promising the pie in the sky for chump change. N
42 BigJKU: Honestly the pricing is only confusing if you are trying to be critical. There are different metrics for different numbers depending on what you want
43 checksixx: However, anyone who actually believed that should have been fired a long time ago...you can't ask for an end all/be all jet and expect it to be cheap
44 powerslide: You are forgetting that in anti-JSF fanboi land you can upgrade any legacy jet to become just as effective.
45 powerslide: F-35 back in the running after common sense took over. Canadians should take note considering the same is likely to happen here. http://www.defensenew
46 oykie: This news had escaped me. After you posted this I had to searched and it made my day! According to Washington Post the F-22 put on a Top-Gun worthy s
47 ThePointblank: Update: South Korea is nearing a decision on buying F-35's: http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...-lockheed-20131023,0,1836263.story Even if a mixed
48 checksixx: It is surprising how many countries, even those with more high performance aircraft than Iran, still have their pilots slaved to ground based radar c
49 ThePointblank: Well, it's one way of giving pilots additional situational awareness as in theory, the ground controller would have a bigger picture of the tactical
50 ThePointblank: Another update: sources close to the program are saying the task force setup to review the F-X III competition will advise the government that they sh
51 checksixx: You make it sound like a good thing...its not. A pilot that cannot use his/her own radar and takes all cues from a ground based controller, won't liv
52 ThePointblank: Update: Sources are saying that the Korean Service Chiefs are expected to back an all F-35 buy. This buy would be for 40 F-35's, with an option for 20
53 tommytoyz: With the number of planes cut by 1/3 for the same money, it's pretty clear the F-35 is about 50% more expensive than the the twin engined F-15 SE. Not
54 ThePointblank: Because the Koreans are primarily buying from LRIP Lot 9. Add on US FMS fees, it adds up. If the Koreans could wait, they could be buying from FRP, w
55 Powerslide: If that was the case Canada would be buying Strike/Silent Eagles.
56 tommytoyz: Is lot 9 even considered an LRIP lot? Haven't 100 F-35s already been produced? No matter the labeling, I don't think the F-35 will come down in price
57 ThePointblank: Yes. There is another LRIP lot, lot 10. Considering that the cost between LRIP lot 1 and lot 5 came down by 50%, it very well can come down some more
58 tommytoyz: After the F-35 program accounted for the engine separately, yes it seems the price came down by a large amount. Factor the engine cost back in, acros
59 ThePointblank: No, the pricing calculation has not been modified in an attempt to make the F-35 look cheaper, unlike your unsubstantiated point. Cheaper upfront cos