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Swiss F/A-18 Down In Switzerland  
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6951 times:

Some European media are reporting that a F/A-18 belonging to the Swiss AF just crashed into a mountain near the Alpnach AFB, while flying together with another F/A-18.

No news so far about the fate of the pilot.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/10...ts-crashes-in-central-switzerland/

Another link (in Italian) with the picture of the crash site

http://info.rsi.ch/home/channels/inf...3--Obvaldo-si--schiantato-un-FA-18

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6948 times:

According to La Repubblica, the missing a/c is a double seat version.

http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2013...reo_militare_in_svizzera-69264655/

At the following link, 5 more pictures, including one showing the wreckage on an engine.

http://www.tio.ch/News/Svizzera/7609...18-dell-Esercito-svizzero/Immagini

[Edited 2013-10-23 07:37:58]

User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6780 times:

Two people that was onboard is missing....  


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8870 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6659 times:

The crash happened only a couple of miles away from my parents' home in Stans.

http://www.tdg.ch/suisse/fa-18-s-dou...rase-canton-dobwald/story/22176323
(in French)

They still aren't sure, but the army spokesman says that "It does not look good" in terms of the crew.

Edit: Eyewitnesses report that the plane evidently tried to pull up at the last second before slamming into the mountainside. Sounds like the pilot was still trying to get control...

http://www.nidwaldnerzeitung.ch/nach...n-Alpnach-abgestuerzt;art95,301401

[Edited 2013-10-23 11:06:44]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 6345 times:

Exact location of the accident: Rock faces just above the railway line and the road, see here: http://s.geo.admin.ch/38937ff9f

The planes took off in Meiringen (AFAIK), which would mean that they flew over the Brünig pass, which lies in the west of the crash location. The pilots would have followed that valley in VFR.

It seems it has crashed about 50 to 80 meters above the lake level. Weather conditions were reported to be "bad". The other F/A-18 returned in IFR.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 869 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 6327 times:

Very unfortunate. Prayers to the crew's family.


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

"Very small" remains of one pilot have been found. The black box has also been located, and is due to be retrieved soon.

A reader of the newspaper "20 Minuten" shot this picture of the engine:


http://www.20min.ch/diashow/83006/83006-ug1QqgVyTLJOMVOJHmSIqw.jpg


In 1998, a double-seated F/A-18 crashed in Crans-Montana during a chase training. With near 1 Mach, with a descent angle of 75°, the aircraft crashed at 1800 meters of altitude in cloudy situations. The village of Crans-Montana is at 1500 meters of altitude, and the surrounding mountains, just about 3-4 kilometers away, reach 3000 meters.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1706 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5654 times:

J-5237 is the registration of the crashed F/A-18D.
UFN all Swiss Airforce F/A-18's are grounded

My thoughts are with the families of the involved crew.  



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

On the website of tagesanzeiger.ch, there are various pictures showing the trajectory immediately before the crash, based on clipped trees:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...n-Sekunden-der-FA18/story/30639618


Here is one particular image showing the weather ten minutes before the crash: http://files.newsnetz.ch/bildlegende/123886/1533708_pic_970x641.jpg


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAlex22 From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 71 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 7):
UFN all Swiss Airforce F/A-18's are grounded

Wrong, they just got grounded wednesday afternoon but have been flying yesterday and today.


User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1706 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5572 times:

Well, I asume the notice has come then.

Good to hear them being put to duty again!

Cheers,
DALCE



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

The accident report has come out today.

The press communiqué can be found here (in German): http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs...on/news/news_detail.53452.nsb.html

A point-by-point-translation, with additions from the report

- wrong decision-making and a inconsequent return maneuver caused the crash
- on October 23rd, one F/A-18C and one F/A-18D took off from Meiringen
- in the crashed plane, there was a pilot (instructor) and a medical doctor from the Swiss Air Force medical department
- some minutes after takeoff, they encountered a rain front with low-lying clouds
- they could not see the rain front before making a 90 degree right turn above Lake Alpnach
- the leader of the two aircraft decided to return to Meiringen and began to execute a turn
- the pilot of the F/A-18C performed an emergency climbout and changed to IFR as soon as he lost sight of the other plane
- shortly afterwards, the F/A-18D crashed after a 20 degree descent and a gentle turn to the left; the other one safely returned to Meiringen
- the ejection seats have not been activated by the pilot, and not by his passenger either
- the investigation determined as the cause: wrong assessment of the situation under increasing pressure
- the pilot thought that he had ample space to execute the return maneuver
- he waited for too long before executing the turn
- and when he finally executed it, he did not do so with the necessary determination
- technical and medical causes have not been found

The pictures showing the flight trajectory as well as the accident report (in German) can be found here: http://www.vbs.admin.ch/internet/vbs...11/oamedieninformationen/fa18.html


David

[Edited 2014-06-23 07:57:37]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6748 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (4 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Thanks for the translation. The pictures are instructing.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):

What bothers me is that one pilot ultimatively killed himself and his passengers by not tapping the huge thrust reserve of his plane... emergency climbout. If you're IFR rated and you have a F/A-18D, the "do a 180 at the same altitude and escape the clouds" of your Cessna days should be in your mind any longer...


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1971 times:
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Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 13):
by not tapping the huge thrust reserve of his plane... emergency climbout

That concerned me as well, one of the oldest aviation sayings... "If in doubt climb, no one has ever crashed into the sky!" and the climb performance of the F/A 18 certainly gives you the ability to go IFR, go Up! then figure the situation out once in the sunshine!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 14):

What also troubles me: The accident report says that the pilot has trained the "return curve" maneuver (in German "Umkehrkurve"). As the accident report was presumably written by Air Force personnel themselves (and not by the civilian accident investigation board), they didn't bother explaining that maneuver.

As a non-pilot, I understand the Umkehrkurve as follows: Because the mountains (especially in a valley) don't give you any information on the plane's attitude, you follow the artificial horizon. Recommended bank angle is 45°, and the slower you fly, the tighter is your turn. Be prepared to lose altitude, and a stall is readily possible.

The pilot killed was an instructor, and has regularly trained other pilots to fly that maneuver. But the report doesn't delve into the question how sensible an Umkehrkurve is with a very fast and powerful airplane. But during the departure briefing, the pilots discussed the rain front (which, during the flight, turned out to be worse) and the possibility of an Umkehrkurve.

Flight sim sessions showed that the Umkehrkurve was possible under good and the actual weather conditions, but even the chief investigator - with his after-the-fact-knowledge - had troubles pulling off this maneuver, but the report only blames too slow and inconsequent decisions for the crash. IMHO flight tactics training should be revised.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
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