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Defence Deal Between India And Russia Today  
User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3822 times:

Hi Guys,

A Major defence deal is being signed between India and Russia today , the order value is expected to touch $3 Bn , this will include the purchase of the Russian Aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov with its full complement of aircrafts. The aircraft carrier deal itself is worth 1.5 bn. The Russian defence minister is in India to sign this deal. Should have some more details by this evening.

Regards

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3768 times:

Ok more just in , the deal also includes (as per a press release) lease of Tu 22 M3 bombers with conventional cruise missiles and all spares. It is rumoured that India would be looking for leasing 2 Akula class nuclear submarines.The Gorshkov deal would include 24 MiG 29 K's and 6 kamov's .

Details on the Tu 22 M3(From Globalaircraft.org)

Powerplant: 2 Kuznetsov NK25's
Length: 139Ft 4 in
Wingspan( spread): 112 Ft 6 in
Swept: 76 ft 6 in
Height: 36 ft 3 in
Speed: 2000 Kmph ( High Altitude) , 1050 Kmph (Low alts)
Range : 7456 miles (Very highly doubtful , these aircraft were plagued with performance issues )
Standard ECM .
Missiles ( 3 X22 cruise missiles or 10 X15's)


Akula Class submarines (from various sources) are one of the quietest subs in its class with a top submerged speed of roughly 35 knots and a surface speed of 20 knots , the displacement is 100000 tonnes and it carries a crew of 85. More details are available here http://arms.ashst.com/navy/941.htm

Regards



User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5364 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

Hardly the big boon most Indiaphiles are hoping for. All of the Gorshkov's forward armament will be removed and he will only be capable of launching one aircraft at a time. Further, the original aircraft complement (Yak-38 Forgers) will be removed and be replaced by MiG-29Ks (some of hwich will be two seat MiG-29KUB trainers) complemented by a helicopter group composed of Ka-31s and Ka-28s. Still a legit carrier presence by the Indian Navy, but definitely not some were hoping for.


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3761 times:

There are serious reservations within the Indian establishment about the Gorshkov. However the Russians were only talking of an "All or Nothing" deal for the Aircraft Carrier, Long Range Nuclear Bomber and certain classified technologies. So there was little option.

Also with the retirement of the INS Vikraant, the Indian Navy is left with just one carrier (the Viraat) which leads to serious operational gaps when it goes for refits. The Viraat itself is due to be retired by 2010 and with repeated delays in the indegenous Aircraft Carrier Project being built in Kochi, the Indian Navy was in for serious trouble.

The Gorshkov is the best option. The Tu-22M long range bombers and the Long Range Cruise Missiles are what India should be lusting after. China's 10 most populous cities as well as the American Naval Base in Diego Garcia now come within first strike range.

-Roy


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

You just can't wait for India to bomb Diego Garcia and kill yanks can you, Roy?

I Wonder how well those Migs are going to intergrate with the migs the IAF already has.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Roy please think before you post something man. I think attacking Diego Garcia and the 10 cities in China are the last things on India's mind. As a nuclear weapon, long range bombers with nuclear strike capabilities , missiles with nuclear launch capabilities are deterrents and not purchased with the idea of bombing someone and of course China and the US would be sitting and watching the Tu22's take off bomb them and come back right ?
The Indian Navy already has the Tu 142 Bears which are more than capable of long distance strikes and are capable of carrying non conventional weapons.

Ok enough of that now for more stuff .
Garnetpalmetto, what you say is absolutely true , but the Gorshkov has to be refitted with a new strip to enable MiG 29's to take off , Yak 38's were VSTOL so the strip length never mattered to them. What the new design is attempting to do is to change the Kiev Class carrier to a kuznetsov class carrier.The Kuznetsov calls does not have any forward armament . The thing is that this in no way compromises the safety of the carrier , the defence system which is to be installed still is under discussion all 3 which have been evaluated are phenomenal systems. Barak and Aster are proven systems and the Kashtan is already being used by the Indian navy.Lets see which one finally gets installed. The carrier though in no terms is comparable with any of the classes of the US aircraft carriers , is good enough for the capabilities the Indian navy is looking for. Besides this Viraat and the Harriers retire in the 2008 to 2010 time frame. The Gorshkov should be in service by 2008 to take over. The indigenous Air defence ship should be in for sea trials by 2009 (Too optimistic) if all goes well.I would tend to think it would be ready for sea trials by 2012. The Air Defence ship is again a replica of the Kuznetsov class carriers.

As far as the aircrafts on the carriers go , I really cant figure out as to why the MiG 29 K's were chosen. I guess it would be because of the costs. The Sukhois are far superior to the MiG 29K's. The other thing is that these aircraft would effectively be a replacement for the Harriers which does not seem very logical. The navy also plans to puchase upto 50 MiG 29's in addition to the 28 with the carrier. There are plans of HAL refurbishing the harrier fleet in house as well to get them to operate beyond 2010.

L 188 with the exception of being carrier borne the aircrafts would be similar to the one's operated by the IAF. Since the overall maintenance would be handled by HAL it should be a pretty comfortable fit.

Just too many things going on at this point , in the next 10 years the Navy can look forward to the following:
  • Admiral Gorshkov in service by 2008

  • 28 + 50 (?) MiG 29 K's operational

  • Air Defence Ship in operation by 2014

  • Harrier life extension to 2020

  • Induction of the Naval LCA

  • The Seaking life extension program , already approved ($ 150 mn)


  • Just my opinions guys ....








    User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

    I really cant figure out as to why the MiG 29 K's were chosen. I guess it would be because of the costs. The Sukhois are far superior to the MiG 29K's.

    Sukhois are much larger and heavier, and would mean a smaller complement of aircraft than with the MiG-29Ks. Frankly the MiG-29Ks were the best choice, IMHO, given the circumstances. The Naval LCA won't be ready until about 2007-08.

    Regarding the selection of the Gorshkov, it was the best carrier available given the timeframe within which one had to be acquired. The Indian Navy has been operating at least one carrier continuously since 1961 when Capt. Pritam Singh Mahindroo brought INS Vikrant to Bombay, and they're loath to be in a situation where they do not have at least one active carrier. The HMS Invincible was also rumoured to be a subject of interest, but nothing apparently came of it.

    Ideally the Navy would operate three carriers - one each operational in the Western and Eastern Commands, and the third undergoing maintenance, in a rotating schedule. That's what the Navy envisages, and they should have it in place around 2015.

    More than the Gorshkov, what interests me most about this deal are the Akulas. They should provide valuable training to our sailors in operating a nuclear attack submarine before the ATV goes into production late this decade.



    India, cricket junior and senior world champions
    User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

    Akula Class submarines (from various sources) are one of the quietest subs in its class with a top submerged speed of roughly 35 knots and a surface speed of 20 knots , the displacement is 100000 tonnes and it carries a crew of 85. More details are available here http://arms.ashst.com/navy/941.htm


    BTW, that link is wrong. The subs we're after are the Type 971 (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/akula/ - the link mentions the IN's lease plans). Type 941 is the Typhoon class, which are SSBNs - fleet ballistic missile subs. There's no way we're going to get those, nor are we planning to.



    India, cricket junior and senior world champions
    User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

    Actually Indianguy Diego Garcia is a British possession. The English kind enough to let the US use the island as a forward base. By the way, there are British forces there also.

    User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
    Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3692 times:

    I believe the British gets rent from the US for its use of the island.

    I am sure the reason why Migs where chosen are a lot simular to why the Navy didn't fly tomcats from the Midway. Just a bit too small.




    OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
    User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5364 posts, RR: 53
    Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3678 times:

    Have no fear, gents. I believe that if, per Roy's wishes, a first strike occurred on Diego Garcia, the population density of New Delhi, Bombay, and Calcutta would decrease greatly. Sheesh, Roy's definitely got a heaping dose of a Napoleon Complex.

    At any rate, I foresee definite trouble in this deal. If the transaction goes through smoothly, there will still be a lot of trouble to be had. The Kiev-class cruisers were never the most mechanically reliable, their machinery was deficient, and had a pretty good track record for wanting to catch on fire with each having had at least one major fire in their service history and, if memory serves, Gorshkov himself, when he was named Baku, had serious problems with his machinery fit. While the turbines will be repaired under the terms of the deal, one can only wonder how successful the refit will be considering the poor track record of quality control in Russian yards. Combine that with the removal of his armament and the structural changes to being a STOBAL carrier, and I can foresee more mechanical headaches for the Indian Navy.



    South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
    User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

    I think statements about the Gorshkov being a lame duck are a tad exaggerated, for several reasons:
    a) The Russian Navy is far more stretched for resources to manage its fleet than India is.
    b) The Indian Navy has been operating carriers continuously for more than four decades, and knows a thing or two about how to take care of them. The Gorshkov will be throroughly refurbished, to the extent that it will be about 70% new.
    c) The Viraat (ex Hermes) too had significant modifications made, but has been maintained in good shape so far, with Cochin Shipyard having the capability to perform the periodic refit, in addition to the work on the locally built carrier.
    d) Despite ridiculously long drawn decision making process at the political level, the forces themselves have shown very good ability to plan its new acquisitions. The most notable case is that of the phased induction of the Su-30MKIs recently. The Navy traditionally has (IMHO) shown the best ability to plan and acquire weaponry suited to its needs, and ensure there are no niggling problems.

    The stuff about an Indian first strike on the US are downright ridiculous. You'll see it happen around the time the first SLBMs fired from British SSBNs make their way to NY, DC and LA.



    India, cricket junior and senior world champions
    User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
    Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

    I figure that Barfbag, but Roy left himself open with the Diego Garcia comment.

    I still have to wonder if the extensive modifications are going to end up cost effective compared with buying the plans off the russians and starting from scratch.



    OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
    User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3663 times:

    I figure that Barfbag, but Roy left himself open with the Diego Garcia comment.

    Well, then I'd expect that you'd know better than to respond to obvious flamebait  Big grin

    I still have to wonder if the extensive modifications are going to end up cost effective compared with buying the plans off the russians and starting from scratch.

    The construction work on the indigenous carrier only just started at Cochin Shipyards recently. It won't be done till ~2009, after which it will have to go through sea trials, fixing any unforseen problems, etc. After all, its the first local effort to build a carrier, and if the French troubles with the CDG is any indicator, its not a piece of cake. The IN probably doesn't want a situation where they're stuck without a carrier for upto half a decade - it would be completely unacceptable to them, and keeping the Viraat running past 2010 would be costly. Much better to spend $600M on the Gorshkov (plus $1B on 28 Mig29Ks and 6 Ka31s) and work on the local carrier at the same time.



    India, cricket junior and senior world champions
    User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

    Hey Barfbag ,

    According to Bharat-Rakshak , the cochin shipyards seems to be building 2 ADS's and not one , thats apparantly what the navy wants. The building of the second one seems to be deffered however , it would however see service probably by 2015 once the facilities in the ship yard get ramped up.
    As far as the Gorshkov goes , its going to be a completely new ship , new engines , new comms, new defence systems , the only thing being used is the shell itself . Like Barfbag said if the Indian navy could have run the Viraat (Ex HMS Hermes) for so long with modifications and repairs this should be a complete cake walk.
    Thanks for the correction on the Akula class subs as well
    Garnetpalmetto, the Gorshkov and most of the kiev class carriers had problems agreed , these were mostly issues with the engines which used to keep conking off and the Gorshkov is still partially burnt due to an accident. However the new engines , absolutely new, should sort this out. Besides this the removal of forward armament is nothing new, like I said its just an attempt to make is similar to the Kuznetsov class carriers which were superior to Kiev but never were used to their potential. As far as the quality control goes , there should be a team from the Indian navy on a rotational basis at all times during the rebuild of the Gorshkov to take care of this. The Indian Airforce has done this for almost all refits , the prime example was the MiG 21 Bisons, and the Indian navy does manage its assets in a far better way than the Air force does  Smile/happy/getting dizzy .

    Regards


    User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
    Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3617 times:

    I'll wait till the Gorshkov docks at the Seabird naval base to see how well the refit went. Just months ago the IN faced similar quality control issues with the Talwar-class guided missile frigates being delivered from Russia, and they did an excellent job of coercing the Russians into ensuring that the whole package worked perfectly before they accepted it.

    The Indian government even received some $50-75 million in penalty charges on the ships, because of the delay in delivery, as per the penalty clause in the contract. If the Talwar deal is any indicator, I have full faith in the ability of the IN to ensure the Gorshkov is completely overhauled before we accept her. The IN, in any case, has greater experience in operating carriers than the Russians do. There'll always be the naysayers; I merely choose to follow a recent, very convincing precedent, to think otherwise.

    Regarding the ADS work at Cochin Shipyards, I can't quite believe they can build two of them in parallel. I lived in Cochin for several years, and drove past the shipyards just a month ago, and didn't see how they had space to build two 40000-ton carriers, in addition to all the other bulk ore/tanker construction work they're into.



    India, cricket junior and senior world champions
    User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

    It used to be fu to provoke L188, KROC and others. But its so fucking easy that its getting to be boring! Well, i did have my share of fun!

    IndianFlyBoy: The Tu142's are not configured as bombers. They are for maritime reconnaissance, and there are limitations to their being used in the bomber role.

    -Roy


    User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
    Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

    As a nuclear weapon, long range bombers with nuclear strike capabilities , missiles with nuclear launch capabilities are deterrents and not purchased with the idea of bombing someone and of course China and the US would be sitting and watching the Tu22's take off bomb them and come back right ?

    And what makes you think that they would "sit and watch Tu-22's take off bomb them and come back" in a second-strike mode? Acquiring the "Capability to strike" is the first part. "No First Strike" is a political decision.

    As for the "10 largest cities of 3 potential threats" comment, that is merely what Jaswant Singh (our current Finance Minister) has said in his book about Indian Armed Forces and his theories on what India should be doing military wise. By the way this Govt has been proceeding they seem to be basically influenced by this man. BTW, read the book. ITs a wonderful insight into Jaswant Singh the Man!

    I personally find this a waste of money, especially the Gorshkov. But India had little choice as the Russians came in with their all-or-nothing stance.

    -Roy


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