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SU-27 Flanker  
User currently offlineRG828 From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4143 times:
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I've always admired this plane for its looks and legendary airshow performances - both good and bad.
However, I've always wondered how it would hold up to a Western air superiority type, like and Eagle for example.
I've never read anything regarding any "flyoff" between a Flanker and an Eagle, only a "mild" comparison between a an RAAF Hornet, where it seemed like they were stressing the F-18's strenghts. I've never bought that report. I have no doubt that after the collapse of the USSR they staged a showdown between the two!
So, does anyone know the truth, the real truth?


I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2116 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4068 times:

I've seen comparison reports of aircraft vs aircraft which I will try to look up and post for you. But, from memory, nothing came close to outmanuevering/dogfighting the Su-27 (maybe Su-37 perhaps, not sure which was used) except the F-16 did fairly well, and the F-22 was on par. All others fell well short.

That is USA vs Russia. Can't remember if the Rafale and Typhoon were included in the scenario.

I'll try to post the link tomorrow.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineRG828 From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4062 times:
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Thanks Haveblue!
I'll be curious to see how the F-22 did.
Interesting that from what you said, the F-15 came up short compared to the F-16.



I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

"Interesting that from what you said, the F-15 came up short compared to the F-16."

Why? They're only talking about dogfighting, and the more agile F-16 beats the larger and heavier F-15 hands down in that category, to put it simply.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineBlackjack From France, joined Apr 2004, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

In France there is a magazine whose the name is : AIR FAN, and I have one where there is a article who compare the F15 and the S27!
I think that I have this magazine with me here in my office, I will check for you if you like french language!! Big grin Big grin

Bye from frenchie...  Smile


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4014 times:

The countries that contributed to the development of the Eurofighter Typhoon asked a Swedish group to evaluate how Typhoon and competing western aircraft would perform against the Su-27. The results:

Provided the pilots are equally skilled, 1.0 means, the western aircraft always wins. 0.0 means, a Su-27 always wins. I can not recall the numbers for the F-18, but the Hornet ranked between the F-15 and F-16:

F-22: 0.9x
Typhoon: 0.8x
Rafale: 0.5x
F-15: 0.50
F-18: ?
F-16 C (?): 0.2x

The Swedish Gripen was not included, most likely to keep the (rather theoretical) investigation neutral.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineRG828 From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4016 times:
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Thanks for all the replies guys.
So, the F-22 and Typhoon have the greatest chances of winning, while the Rafale and Eagle have a 50% chance, while the Falcon has te least probability of winning?
Now I'm more confused !
Keep those reports coming...!



I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3936 times:

RG828,

When it comes to a dog fight the Flanker series would win hands down over most of the western types.The F 22 would probably be the only one which can even compete. The later generations the Su 30/35/37 would win hands down against the F 22 as well. However it is hard to compare to aircrafts designed with completely different ideologies. Most of the russian aircrafts are extremely effective in dogfights but lack on the technology front (Not talking about the newer Sukhoi's here) .Their western counterparts on the other hand have excellent avionics and excellent weapons systems so in a BVR scenario would be able to put up a very effective counter attack. Taking the example of the Indian Air Force , the MiG 29's purchased in 94 have recently been retro fitted with newer avionics for better flight management, weapons systems management and to allow the capability to fire the Amraamski , which they were unable to do earlier. Avionics upgrades are also in progess for the MiG 21's ,and the 27's.
So in short when you compare win ratios you have to take 2 things in mind , will the Sukhoi's survive the missile onslaught of their western counterparts , in the event that they do and get close to the western fighters there are very slim chances of the western's surviving. However in the event that they dont , their dog fighting skills are of hardly any use.

Regards


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

The Western and Russian fighter designs are going in opposite directions..

The Western Designs rely on Stealth and superior avionics and weapons systems to kill targets "over the horizon" before the targets even know they are being targeted.

The Russian designs focus on manuverability and close in dog fighting skills.

Which one is superior, well you would have to ask the folks who test them in the Nevada desert Big grin



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRG828 From Brazil, joined Jan 2004, 582 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3870 times:
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Thanks again for the replies.
I know very well that Western philosophy prefers a BVR engagement - probably began with the YF-12 in the 60's - so whoever has the technology wins that battle, not necessarily a show of airmanship.
I always wanted to know how the SU-27 and a Western type could handle a down and dirty engagement, eyeball-to-eyeball.
Yup, I would sure like to ask a red-hat squadron pilot this question though!!!



I dont know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3807 times:

"It isn't the crate, but the man sitting in it" Manfred von Richtofen


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFtrguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

L-188 said it perfectly! If a pilot is not trained well or does not stay current, he might as well be flying a Cessna 172 because he and his machine are useless.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Technology is developed to overcome tactics.
Tactics then evolve to overcome technology.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
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