Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority  
User currently offlineRussophile From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11405 times:

From Pravda.ru website and widely reported elsewhere (except the airliners.net military aviation forums -- me wonders why haha) and posted below inline with Pravda.ru copyright useage

-------

The American military amazed Moscow and the Russian media by saying that Russian-made fighter planes were superior to their American equivalents. How can these flattering revelations be explained?

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

USA Today reported: We may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we thought we were, said Gen. Hal Hornburg, the chief of the Air Combat Command, which oversees U.S. fighter and bomber wings...The F-15Cs are the Air Force's primary air superiority aircraft...[and] the results of the exercise [were] wake up call.

The Inside the Air Force official newsletter also discussed the "Russian victory," and reported even more details. F-15 C/D Eagle fighters were pitted against not only Su-30 MKI fighters but also MiG-27s, MiG-29s, and even the older MiG-21 Bisons, which also performed well. The fighters not only defeated the F-15s but the French-made Mirage-2000 as well. According to the Washington ProFile Web site, the results of the exercises surprised the American pilots.

Meanwhile, Russian military experts and aircraft designers did not seem surprised by these victories. The Sukhoi general designer, Mikhail Simonov, has repeatedly told RIA Novosti and other news agencies the Su-27 Flanker and the Su-30 MKI, a modified version of the Flanker, which are now in service in the Indian Air Force, were developed in the 1980s in response to the F-15 Eagle. Moreover, Soviet designers had stipulated far superior specifications. Consequently, Russian experts were not particularly surprised that the performance of the fighters matched their specifications.

Why did an American general publicly admit this fact four months after the exercises?

India's Su-30 MKI fighters and F-15 C/D Eagles from Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska, engaged in mock combat exercises in February 2004. However, no one mentioned that India won three of the four exercises at the time.

Russian fighters first defeated their US rivals when Sukhoi and MiG fighters had just started being shown at international aerospace shows in the early 1990s. At that time, several Su-27 fighters, under the command of Maj.-Gen. Alexander Kharchevsky, the head of the Lipetsk center for retraining air force pilots, went to Canada to demonstrate their impressive potential. (President Vladimir Putin flew in a Su-27 to Chechnya.)

Instead of missiles and artillery shells, Russian and American fighter planes used aerial cameras to record their mock air-to-air battles. American fighters were disappointed to learn the results of exercise - their cameras had not captured any Su-27s. The Russians, however, had filmed their rivals' vulnerable points from just about every angle.

Russian pilots owed their impressive success to the Su-27's spectacular performance and its substantial thrust-to-weight ratio. The fighter's unsurpassed performance has already become well known throughout the world because no other fighter (except MiG fighters) can execute such impressive stunts as Pugachev's Cobra and others.

The F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 have wide turning radii. Russian fighters, on the other hand, can turn on a dime by merely switch on their afterburners.

Apart from in Canada, MiG-29 fighters also fought mock air battles with South Africa's Mirage-2000s. Again, the Russia planes defeated their enemies.

Chief designer Arkady Slobodskoi, the supervisor of the MiG-29 program, said, "if our plane is within range of an opponent and has a direct shot, the enemy can be considered destroyed. It only takes 5-6 machine gun bursts."

The United States, which is aware of the impressive combat potential of Russian fighters, had even purchased a squadron of MiG-29s from Moldova after the Soviet Union disintegrated. (That squadron was deployed at an airfield near Chisinau.) Germany, which had obtained a number of MiG-29s after reunification, helped repair the Moldovan fighters. Both Germany and the United States now use these aircraft to train their pilots, so that the pilots can cope with the 7,000 Russian fighters in the world. Britain's Military Balance magazine estimated that India had more than 500 Russian-made fighters. It was therefore not surprising that Indian pilots could defeat their American rivals, despite the U.S. Air Force's intensive combat-training programs.

On the other hand, American pilots have not confronted any serious adversaries for a long time. The U.S. Air Force dominated the skies over Yugoslavia in 1999 and in Iraq in 1991 and 2003. Iraqi planes were grounded during both campaigns. Therefore, mock combat is the only way to amass experience.

The long standing American Air Force mentality prevents its pilots from confronting their Russian counterparts because any possible setback would be detrimental to morale. An American Air Force pilot must be convinced that he can and must defeat the former "theoretical enemy." At the same time, these problems do not exist for mock combat exercises against Indian pilots because any defeats can be explained by inadequate training.

Why did the United States inform the world about its setbacks? Neither Russian, nor U.S. generals like to do this.

The explanation lies on the surface: The U.S. Congress discusses defense spending for the next fiscal year every June and therefore, top American military officials started talking about events in February 2004 now.

--------

As I have said elsewhere, the rest of the world knows that the Russians produce the best of the best in terms of air fighters, but the US military is only just now realising this? Big grin

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11249 times:

Open your eyes and look down through the threads Russophile. If you did, you would know all about the politics behind the affair (ie. the USAF's attempts to sell the F-22 to politicians), as well as the staged and rather unrealistic scenarios in which the exercises took place. Hell, the Su-30MKI didn't even take part in the exercises. Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent fighter, but what makes it so in many ways are the parts of it that aren't Russian.

"As I have said elsewhere, the rest of the world knows that the Russians produce the best of the best in terms of air fighters,"

That kind of attitude is the last thing the CIS aerospace industry needs.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11162 times:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/21452/

Double Post.

I think your answer lies in one word Money.

Basicly the USAF is trying to get F-22 money secured.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11099 times:

Russophile: U are an idiot. There is no way that the Russians can beat America in any war, air or ground! Its just no possible. America is unbeatable!!


Basicly the USAF is trying to get F-22 money secured.

Couldnt have said it better. The USAF is unbeatable and this is only a tactic to secur emore funding.



User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11091 times:

Roy, I am trying to decide if you are being sarcastic or not.

But you don't get new airplanes by claiming your current ones are the best in the world!



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11063 times:

With you Roy, it is hard to tell sometimes.

But usually not on this forum.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11042 times:

General Hal M. Hornburg told USA Today that India's Sukhoi Su-30 MKI multi-role fighters have been successful against F-15 C/D Eagle aircraft in mock combat. In fact, the Indians won 90% of the mock combat missions.

When is everyone finally going to figure out that India did not field the Su 30 MKI in Cope Thunder , they were the Su 30 K's/MK1's .


The Su 30 MKI has more design and performance characteristics similar to the Su 37 while not exactly the same and will be comparable to the F 22 , exactly what the USAF generals are trying to showcase and get the funding they want.

Regards


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11022 times:

Even if enough MKI's were around i doubt if the Indian Govt would allow the IAF to parade the true capability. I am sure all the aircraft that participated , US as well as Indian, were defanged befiore being sent out.

-Roy


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11017 times:

I understand that the US 15's simulated earlier versions of the Sidewinder missiles, not the Aim9X that is now fielded with the 21TFS.

I understand the same is true of the BFR missile loads.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11009 times:

" i doubt if the Indian Govt would allow the IAF to parade the true capability. "

Yet the USAF would parade its true capability, huh?

P.S. There is nothing comparable to the F-22, not even the Su-30MKI.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11004 times:

I personally think Russian helicopters and transport planes are better, but fighters? No I don´t think so...


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10885 times:

Welll I will admit that you can do far worse then a Mil helicopter. But western designs do tend to be more efficent.

Didn't the Swedish military a few years back, conduct a fly off between an Mi-28 and an AH-64 for a attack helicopter contract?

I don't think any where ordered, but would be curious to hear about the results.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineContact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10877 times:

"Didn't the Swedish military a few years back, conduct a fly off between an Mi-28 and an AH-64 for a attack helicopter contract?"

Correct!


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 10873 times:

And???

How did it turn out????

Enquiring minds want to know.

Particularly this one, since my 2nd unit in Germany when I was in the Army flew Apaches.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10866 times:

L-188: I think the Mi-28 pretty much owned the Apache if I remember correctly. Was a few years ago. Someone else might remember better.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10852 times:

Well, I remember hearing comments about how the US crew had manuals for everything, and the Russian crew just took theirs apart.

Not sure if that is really a comment on the aircraft though.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10844 times:

L-188: Remember a story about the russains firing an AK47 into the windscreen as an answer to how durable the helicopter was, sounds a bit dramatic though hehe. Someone else probably know the whole story about that.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 10837 times:

Hmmm, didn't hear that one.

I however did witness a line of Apaches being led home by an OH-58.

The reason, There was 3 inches of new snow on the ground, so there was no contrast for the IR gear on the Apache to see anything. So they had to follow the OH-58, with a pilot wearing a 2500 dollar set of NVG light intensifying gogles home.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10781 times:

Even if we'll assume that Su-30 and MiG 29 are superior to their western counterparts, the next generation of the US fighters simply leaves Russia with nothing. (I am talking mainly about avionics)


2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10762 times:

I'm sure that if Russia would want to be involved in a war offensive, like the US has for the past 15 years, they can get their technology up to par, they just need money.

Don't under estimate the Russians.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10701 times:

Don't under estimate the Russians.

I think I will underestimate the Russians in this case. Equipment is only half the battle... well trained and experienced pilots are required to opperate these contraptions. Terrific if an Mi-28 can pull circles around an Apache, but if the crew can't find the laser targeting toggle they might as well take it apart and use the fuel tank to brew vodka.


User currently offlineIndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 10649 times:

P.S. There is nothing comparable to the F-22, not even the Su-30MKI.


LY 744 , not wanting to get into and argument out here , but on what grounds ? Performance , avionics , maneuverability which one ? National pride is one thing , but on a forum of this nature , please back up your comments with some documentation . The F 22 may indeed be superior to the Su 30 MKI or the Su 37 I really dont deny that , but some documentation or a comparison would help.

Even if we'll assume that Su-30 and MiG 29 are superior to their western counterparts, the next generation of the US fighters simply leaves Russia with nothing. (I am talking mainly about avionics)

LY7E7 , US and western avionics are indeed superior to their Russian counterparts , but taking the Su 30 MKI for example , none of the avionics is russian , with the exception of the radar . All mission computers are a mix and match of French , Israeli and Indian avionics. This has been the ongoing trend for the last couple of purchases.

Regards



User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10476 times:

Even in fighter combat, training and doctrine are at least as important in deciding who wins as technology is. It is hard to get a good comparison when both sides use different training techniques and strategies. That is how the Israelis have won every single air war they have fought. In World War II, the Germans lost the air war in the West once they could not longer afford the fuel to train their pilots - they never even came close to running out of planes. Later in Korea, the Mig-15 and the F-86 were virtually equal. Yet the US did much better than their opponents because of their training and leadership. The US also managed to turn around its air-to-air kill ration in Vietnam by improving training.

The more significant finding in the latest exercises may be that some airforces have managed to at least equal the US in training and doctrine. The Su-30 as an airframe/engine combination probably is superior to the F-15, considering they were designed later and with the F-15 in mind. If you take into account superior USAF avionics and weapons, my guess is the advantage goes back to the F-15. But this is immaterial. In a situation this closely matched, it is how the planes are used that counts the most.

In the absence of a MAJOR technical advantage for one side such as stealth, technology does not decide the outcome of battles. Training and leadership do. Even where there is a major technical advantage for one side, it is often wasted by poor command decisions (remember Hitler's obsession with the jet bomber, at the expense of fighters?) or is irrelevant to the situation at hand (remember Vietnam?).

IN SHORT..... Technology is not and will never be as important as people in war. Or in any other part of life, for that matter. The human factor is the decisive factor.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (10 years 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10384 times:

BTW, according to AvWeek, USAF now has 51 F-22s ordered, with 22 in the order for FY2004. The way that supply chain works, that means the parts and such have long since been in the pipeline. In any case, that's enough F-22s to give any other power a major headache.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAUAE From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 296 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10269 times:

Good posts on this one guys,

I am thinking along these lines, there are several very very good Russian fighters that have come out in the past 15 years. I think the Mig-29 and F-15 could match up fairly even. I think the F-16 can still give most modern fighters a good run. But F-16's and F-15s are damn old, and there is no way they can compare to newer Sukhoi aircraft in performance. I would say that in the old days, the Russians made up the performance difference with missile technology. Don't know how they fare today, but Russian missiles were very very good.

Today, I think the F-22 represents top tier performance and superiority. It may not be the best in close in fighting, but it is meant to gain surperiority well before that happens. It avionics / radar / jamming suite is the best in the world. I would like to see it up against the best. I think it would win hands down.

Just my $.02,

Shawn



Air transport is just a glorified bus operation. -Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive
25 LMP737 : Indianflyboy: Don't take this the wrong way but I think you are guilty of the same thing you say LY744 is guilty of. I belive it was you who said "The
26 IndianFlyboy : Hi LMP737, Not taking it the wrong way at all. In fact I did not mean to be rude or sarcastic to LY 744 in any way. If you read that post I had made I
27 Nealcg : Not wanting to totally dive into this but isn't the Sukoi to F22 comparison rather pointless. The F22 is designed for Air Superiority, not dog fightin
28 Klaus : Stealth technology has passed its peak usefulness already. Passive radar and other sophisticated technologies are already beginning to reduce its rele
29 LMP737 : Klaus: How many countries have "passive radar" and "other sophisticated technologies"? When you look at the air-air and surface-air systems in use tod
30 DfwRevolution : Passive radar and other sophisticated technologies are already beginning to reduce its relevance. I'd beg to differ. Yes passive radar does slightly d
31 L-188 : Nealcg summed up what these comments amount to pretty nicely. Stealth is not the end-all be all of warfare. It is just technology designed to create t
32 Cloudy : Passive radar and other sophisticated technologies are already beginning to reduce its relevance. ------- As mentioned before, these systems are expen
33 Agill : Cloudy: The export version of T-72 eqivalent to M1???
34 L-188 : The Iraqis had tanks equivalent to the M1 in the first gulf war, and artillery superior to our own The artillery I can believe since they where smart
35 Klaus : One of the points of passive radar is that it´s dirt cheap compared to conventional radar. It is mainly implemented through intelligent software; Its
36 DfwRevolution : But the absolute trust in it being a huge advantage forever is certainly misplaced. It will always be a tradeoff between financial cost and engineerin
37 L-188 : Exactly you have a fixed cost for the development of the particular weapons system, that has to be spread over a number of airframes. Reduce the plann
38 DC3CV3407AC727 : i agree sounds like a ploy to secure funding for the F22,but dont discount the quality of the Sukhoi,or the Mig,though it almost always comes down to
39 Boeing4ever : And the fact that if you hit a T-72 in the right spot, the turret pops off like a champage cork..... Any videos of that? B4e-Forever New Frontiers
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic US Admits Russia Has Air Fighter Superiority
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Eads Confident On Share Of US Air Tanker Deal posted Mon Sep 18 2006 12:12:54 by Columba
Air Superiority Over Europe In The Early 1980s posted Mon Aug 28 2006 15:58:34 by AislepathLight
Reuters: New US F-35 Fighter Dubbed "Lightning II" posted Fri Jul 7 2006 21:02:21 by N328KF
Which Fighter Has The Worst Safety Record? posted Mon Mar 6 2006 00:59:01 by TheSonntag
Ex-US Army UH-1H Helicopters In Lebanese Air Force posted Sat Mar 4 2006 03:08:56 by BA
US Air Force Interested In VLJs posted Fri Feb 3 2006 02:17:03 by 2H4
Britain In Battle With US Over Fighter Plane posted Tue Dec 20 2005 12:53:58 by Keesje
India-US Air Force War Games! posted Sun Nov 6 2005 06:19:14 by JoyA380B747
US Fighters In Russia? posted Fri Sep 23 2005 23:43:04 by SLCPilot
US President Selects A380 As New Air Force One... posted Tue May 3 2005 22:56:35 by AirOrange
US Support For Fighter Planes posted Thu Jan 23 2014 18:40:29 by solarflyer22
Spanish Air Force Has A330 Mrtt Ambitions posted Wed Dec 4 2013 09:57:35 by LAXintl
US Air Force All White Boeing 757? posted Sun Jun 10 2012 12:42:14 by 747400sp
Boeing's New Air Dominance Fighter Concept posted Tue Jun 7 2011 12:49:26 by Devilfish
Help Needed: US Air Force BBJ In FCO March 21st posted Tue Mar 22 2011 06:03:55 by BasilFawlty
Wrist Watches For The US Air Force Pilots? posted Mon Dec 20 2010 21:37:02 by wardialer
Bundeswehr To Boost Air Power With US Attack Helic posted Mon May 17 2010 14:14:24 by columba
US Air Force B757 In ATL On Thursday? posted Sun Mar 28 2010 05:07:57 by BHMDiversion
Two F 16 Jets Of US Air Force Collides! – Accident posted Fri Oct 16 2009 07:09:46 by Seefivein

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format