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Usaf Has Trouble Finding Farnborough  
User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1837 posts, RR: 14
Posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4780 times:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/21/nfarn21.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/21/ixhome.html

Um....precision weapon?....missing the world's largest airshow in broad daylight by 5 miles??

Whoops!

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Hehe - probably because the official US Government atlas (there is only one) was being used that day to demonstrate to a highly placed official that Iraq isn't the one 90 miles south of Key West - no George, that's the OTHER Axis of Evil.

User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

No I think it was because there was a wedding party going on in Blackbushe  Nuts


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4638 times:

Also see following thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1658919/

I was there - very disappointing & slightly worrying. The F-117 flyby was fantastic though.





User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

Now you know why I joined the navy.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

more likely some ATC guy wanted to play a practical joke on either the organisers or the USAF...

Those aircraft are under positive control.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

Dear oh dear oh dear.......

Now that does make you worried!


User currently offlineSleak76 From Kuwait, joined Nov 2000, 345 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4417 times:

Hardly surprising!

Especially reading the news last month about that NW landing at an AFB instead of a commecial airport - also in broad daylight.



'Place your ad here'. Only $9.95 per post made.
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4392 times:

Sleak76...

Kuwait of all nation-states should know how precision works. BTW...when you want to criticize somebody, especially a pilot, walk a mile in his or her boots, or fly a couple hours in their seat.


User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Miamiair,

Are you saying that its not wrong or bad for this to have happened? Its not the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this has happened with US civil and Military aircraft.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8202 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

Miamiair, get it together. This is a perfect example of why the supposedly hi tech invasion of Iraq has killed tens of thousands of civilians. You should be defending critics of this latest incident, not defending the pilot who was responsible.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineBUFJets From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4212 times:

Cederjet- keep you propaganda out of this forum

User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Well, gee. USAF flight crews have been complaining for years that they're not getting enough training time.

Maybe this is an indication that they are right???



By the way, JGPH1A, how's that latest copy of "Soldier of Surrender: The Official Magazine of the French Military"? I hear it's got a great "how-to" article on making a white flag from boxer shorts, assuming they aren't soiled at the sight of the enemy...

(Sorry to any Legionaires who may have been offended by that remark. You guys are incredible!)

Jwenting:

It's amazing how everyone ignored you. I don't know about European airshows, but here in the US, it's just as you describe: Aircraft follow the direct instructions of local controllers, period. They don't get to set their own routes.

This is a perfect example of why the supposedly hi tech invasion of Iraq has killed tens of thousands of civilians.

By who's counting?!?! Even Amnesty International, the most respected by vehemently anti-war group in the world, estimates civilian casualties before the Official End of Combat Operations at around 3,000. Which, considering the fact that we successfully occupied a WHOLE COUNTRY, is remarkable in history for how low those casualty rates are. By the way, we've found a single mass-grave area (really dozens of mass graves in one location) that has 100 times that number of bodies in it...

You should be defending critics of this latest incident, not defending the pilot who was responsible.

What possible responsibility does he have to defend people he disagrees with, other than their right to speak their minds?



Look, none of us were there. We don't know what happened. The Air Force is looking into it, as are the Brits I am sure.

We'll see what the official report says.



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlineSteve7E7 From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 478 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

I can hardly see how it could be the crew's fault.

ATC maintain responsibility for all aircraft movements in the area.Full Stop.

The Captain is reliant on ATC to vector him to his destination whilst maintaining separation from other aircraft.Full Stop.

As Jwenting said...it is more likely that someone has had a laugh at the poor crew's expense.

Steve.


User currently offlineLaddb From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

I'd like to add one point. Whenever there is a US military mistake, be it a bomb missing its target, an aircraft crashing, etc. everyone acts like it happens all the time. Thing is, the US military is doing so much more than anyone else. They fly the most sorties, drop the most bombs, etc. Of course they are going to have higher numbers of mistakes. But per operation, sorite, or whatever, I'd be willing to bet they are above average.

User currently offlineSulman From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2037 posts, RR: 32
Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

How on earth did this thread end up being politicised? What a load of bollocks. The crew quite possibly got disorientated and simply overlooked the field. England is a funny old place like that - most of it looks the same from the air, especially at lower levels, travelling at four miles a minute.


It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3989 times:

If one does a little research one would find that EVERY air force in the world has had a couple "Oh s*#ts" in their long and illustrious career.

Cedarjet:

Please back up your claims with something other than your "word".

JGPH1A:

Remember that Mirage 2000 crew that was shotdown over Bosnia? Guess who the French TRAP team had to hitch a ride with? That's right a USAF Pave Low. Evidently the French military helicopters did not even have the capability to get lost at night and in bad weather.


User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

The pilot was probably using VFR/airshow protocols due to low altitude, and the distance between airfields was around 5 miles.

There are airports bigger than 5 miles across.

It's an embarassing mistake, but then again it was a pilot using visual flight rules over unfamiliar territory and NOT a GPS precision operation. Which a bombing run would be. ATC would not be responsible for every turn of the display but would just be responsible for bringing the aircraft to the area and then tracking it out of the display area again.

The Farnborough display box itself will be considerably bigger than five miles across, as you can't turn stuff like A346s or 744s on a sixpence.

[Edited 2004-07-21 17:11:25]

User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3708 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3976 times:
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He came over my house twice. I should imagine once he had called airfield in sight ATC left him to it.

I expect once he had set up on his chosen 'field he was locked into it as I understand a B-52 handles like an oil super-tanker



User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

B-52s can turn quite tightly if they have to.
Size is little indication for agility...

I've seen the An-225 turn inside the airfield perimeter at le Bourget.
Friend has seen a 744 turn inside the airfield perimeter (or close to) at Duxford.

No, I guess someone played a practical joke on them and set them up on a short visual final to the wrong airport deliberately.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

No, I guess someone played a practical joke on them and set them up on a short visual final to the wrong airport deliberately.

And guaranteed themselves all kinds of trouble?

That is just ridiculous. Air traffic controllers don't play 'jokes' on pilots. Any controller who did would never see inside a tower again and would probably wind up in court.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Noone's ever find out it was deliberate.
Read all the kids here: "stupid Yank can't find the correct runway".

The controller in question is a civilian, aircraft is a foreign military aircraft.
Bound to be comms problems, then handoff to a controller that they're not normally talking to a lot.
At the least they can claim the pilot got confused and get off lightly.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineWhitehatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

The British and Americans both speak English....and British controllers are constantly handling US military traffic.

As this happened in civil air space over an airfield an investigation is definitely going to happen. No controller would ever be as stupid as to potentially endanger lives and aircraft for some sick kind of joke.


User currently offlineTasha From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

"Miamiair, get it together. This is a perfect example of why the supposedly hi tech invasion of Iraq has killed tens of thousands of civilians. You should be defending critics of this latest incident, not defending the pilot who was responsible"

I hate to tell you this Cederjet, but there is no such thing as a clean war. And "tens of thousands of civilians"... where do you get your information, ahhh don't tell me I know: Osama Bin Laden.


User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Have all the B-52's received GPS yet? I know that none of them can carry JDAMs internally.

I don't believe the SLEP has been completed on all the aircraft, to give them GPS.

BTW: The RAF shouldn't talk they recently take out a light post with a Jaguar.



At worst, you screw up and die.
25 Contact_tower : The notion that F'boro ATC played a "joke" on the crew is insulting, and the idea that they are not used to foreign military traffic shows how little
26 Garnetpalmetto : And the notion that the BUFF's crew were a bunch of morons tooling around in a multimillion dollar aircraft is insulting/ I suggest that those crews p
27 LMP737 : While I do not believe that ATC was playing a joke on the BUFF crew I suspect there might have been some miscommunication. After all the we Americans
28 MD-90 : I suggest that F'boro's controllers probably work more diverse traffic then most other units in the world, after all the show are an annual event! Ver
29 F4wso : An instrument flying axiom is one peek is worth a thousand crosschecks. However, seeing a runway can cause the mind to stop cross checking instruments
30 Duce50boom : Great post, F4wso. Without kissing ass, I think your poss explanation, along with and maybe compounded by LMP737's are the best explanations so far. I
31 Post contains images JetMechMD80 : From a former ground pounder, my hat is off to the USAF, they may have missed Farnborough, but when the chips were on the line, they found Bagdad, and
32 Duce50boom : I just got an email from the Aircraft commander of the B-52 in question. He asked if I could post it for him. Here it is; "I'm the pilot who flew the
33 BENNETT123 : Nice to find out what really happened. The important points are firstly that no one got hurt and that secondly that lessons have been learnt. On a lig
34 KiwiNanday : Can we stop pointing fingers and saying its because the American military is sh|t, or that an ATC played a prank... it was a mistake, plain and simple
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