Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11489 times:

I did a search and only came up with the following post http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1687126/6/

I was promoted with this question by a friend thought I would ask? Why doesn't the Air Force One have winglets? Or at least ONE Air Force One.

Because I know that it wont do good on A MIA RDU flight but IAD to LAX it would be very helpfull. (Fuel efficient)

Also is right to call the Air Force One a 747-300 ?? Or just A upgraded -200 (Super 200)

Why not a new livery for every new president that goes into office? (curiosity But with the Campaine money that is leftover HEY put it into a paint job)

[Edited 2004-08-16 09:04:05]

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAa61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11471 times:

AF1 is a 742 body.

I'm willing to bet that AF1 has some kind of extended range on it, or that it never carries a huge load of passengers so it gets good mileage



Go big or go home
User currently offlineBIGBlack From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11458 times:

But doesn't it carry a lot of extra crap as payload? Fancy desks, security measures and such? New for every president would be pricey.


Someone special in the air
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11429 times:

Also is right to call the Air Force One a 747-300 ?? Or just A upgraded -200 (Super 200)


Neither. It's a VC-25. See here: http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet_print.asp?fsID=131&page=1

Whenever you talk about why it has this or that, or it's missing this or that (like winglets), then you can in some cases say "because it's based on a 747-200". But to answer your question exactly as it's worded, if someone asked you the actual designation of this aircraft, it's a VC-25.

The VC-25 doesn't need winglets because it's capable of mid-air refueling. It might save a little money to have winglets but you can't just stick a winglet on a wing that wasn't designed for them, so it's not worth the effort or expense, I'm sure. The VC-25 is not really about saving money in any case.


Why not a new livery for every new president that goes into office? (curiosity But with the Campaine money that is leftover HEY put it into a paint job)


Because the airplane doesn't represent the President, it represents the country. The livery is the livery of the United States of America, not the livery of George Bush or Bill Clinton or John Kerry. The livery has been basically the same since the days of John Kennedy, and if you ask me, it still looks classier than almost any other livery flying (especially now that BA changed their classic livery).

It would be illegal to use campaign funds for something like this anyway. The plane is owned by the US Air Force, not by a presidential candidate's campaign organization.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11408 times:

Because the airplane doesn't represent the President, it represents the country. The livery is the livery of the United States of America, not the livery of George Bush or Bill Clinton or John Kerry. The livery has been basically the same since the days of John Kennedy....

From what I have heard (source unknown, but I think it was brought up at Reagan's funeral on TV...) is that President Kennedy's wife, Jackie, was the one that did the design of the livery for the original Air Force One. And that was carried on to the current Air Force One.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11383 times:

I believe Air Force One had that livery before Kennedy got in office... Wasn't Eisenhower the first president to fly the Air Force One with the blue/white/silver livery, a DC-4 if i remember correctly


Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
User currently offlineN774UA From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11375 times:

A couple months ago at the Museum of flight in Seattle I was told by staff that the livery was designed by Jackie Kennedy.

N774UA



...follow his instructions, switch off at the stand.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11364 times:

I believe Air Force One had that livery before Kennedy got in office.

That IS the one and only livery that Jackie Kennedy designed herself and is now passed on the current Air Force One.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineA319114 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 541 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11340 times:

Wow I didn't know that. She did a great job, it's a timeless design


Destruction leads to a very rough road but it also breeds creation
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11338 times:

Jackie Kennedy did not design the livery for Air Force One. She enlisted Raymond Loewy to do it, and it's his livery that has been passed down to the current airplanes.

http://www.raymondloewy.org/gallery/airforce1.html

If you want to see the original design (which was red, white and blue), follow this link and scroll down the page, but beware it's either going to ask you to open up an app to play a sound, or it's just going to start playing it for you:

http://www.rediscoveredpaper.com/af1.html

This older livery may have been "designed" by Jackie Kennedy (I don't really know anything about it, and doubt many people do anymore), but Raymond Loewy, who was/is a famed designer, came up with the current livery.

If the Museum of Flight is telling people that Jackie Kennedy designed the livery for the current Air Force One, somebody there needs to be strung up. It is one of Raymond Loewy's signature achievements and it's pretty well-known in design circles...

[Edited 2004-08-16 10:12:24]


I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineF4f3a From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11158 times:

I remember reading somewhere that af1 had an incredible endurance something in the region on 48hrs (without refueling). The engines are new not something normaly seen on 200s and im sure the avionics are very impressive probably 744 style or newer. Then there are all the other goodies on it that aren't standard that I think are continually upgraded.

I don't think winglets are an issue considering the airforce still flies b52s kc135s which drink gas so economics as regard to cost aren't an issue.

I don't think that the livery should be changed either. The a/c is a symbol of power and presence and I think the continuity of the livery is a part of this. The BA scheme caused uproar and controversy so imagine what would be the reaction of changing af 1 every four years.

Although I wonder what a/c could be next poss 7e7 derivative in ten years or so.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17055 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11095 times:

The VC-25As (there are 2, plus 4 E-4Bs known as NEACP) have an endurance of around 72 hours. This is not limited by fuel (mid-air refueling) but by lubrication in the engines.

Certifiying winglets for 2 examples of a type would be unreasonably expensive considering the limited savings.

As has been mentioned, they are based on the 747-200 but are really a custom job with different avionics and various other doodads (in air-refueling, commo equipment, trailing antenna, etc...)



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline7LBAC111 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 2566 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11080 times:

Isn't Air Force One the call sign for any flight the president is on - so therefore not specific to the VC-25?


Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17055 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11055 times:

Almost right.

Air Force One - any Air Force aircraft with the President on board.
Marine One - any Marine aircraft with the President on board, like the helicopter.
Army One - any Army aircraft with the President on board.
Navy One - any Navy aircraft with the President on board, like the Greyhound when he visits a carrier.
Executive One - any non-military aircraft with the President on board.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSyncmaster From United States of America, joined Jul 2002, 2037 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11050 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

It is the call sign for any Air Force aircraft, Marine One for Marine aircraft, Civilian One for Civil Aircraft, etc.

Otherwise it's SAM 2x000 (whatever number it is, I can never remember).


User currently offlineSafetyDude From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3795 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 11018 times:

Also is right to call the Air Force One a 747-300 ?? Or just A upgraded -200 (Super 200)
Neither. It's a VC-25.

I believe that the name is VC-25A.

Why not a new livery for every new president that goes into office? (curiosity But with the Campaine money that is leftover HEY put it into a paint job)
Aside from the politics of re-painting it for campaigning purposes, AF1 and the Air Force is to serve every president the same regardless of his political party.

 Smile
-Will



"She Flew For What We Stand For"
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17055 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10993 times:

The livery (or a very similar one) is also used on other planes, for example for the Vice President (and I assume other representatives of the Executive Branch):


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Mantoudis
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alex R. Lloyd




"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5399 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10934 times:

It is the call sign for any Air Force aircraft, Marine One for Marine aircraft, Civilian One for Civil Aircraft, etc

Not quite. As someone else said, it's Executive One for any nonmilitary aircraft.

Otherwise it's SAM 2x000 (whatever number it is, I can never remember).

That would be SAM 28000 or SAM 29000, depending on which VC-25 is being used.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineEksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1309 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10904 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

I believe Air Force One had that livery before Kennedy got in office... Wasn't Eisenhower the first president to fly the Air Force One with the blue/white/silver livery, a DC-4 if i remember correctly

Well ..here is the Eisenhower's Connie and she is silver. In service till 1966


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Suresh A. Atapattu


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ted Quackenbush



I believe there was a DC-4,too...and she had a red,white ,blue theme...bu the blue was a darker blue than on AF one now.



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10895 times:

When will they create a AF1 744? I'd pay a few extra tax dollars for that Big grin As long as it's not soiled by Bush's presence.

If they did go to the 744, what would happen to the current 742's?



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17055 posts, RR: 67
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10861 times:

As has been exhaustively discussed in countless threads, the VC-25As are very young in airframe time, they are ridiculously well maintained, and hardly ever used in relative terms.

There is really no need for a replacement any time soon, and going to the 744 wouldn't add anything new to the table. Going from the 707 (don't know the designation of the Presidential one) to the VC-25A was a huge leap in capabilities. Just getting a couple of custom 744s wouldn't change anything significant.

So I don't see a new Presidential aircraft until the current ones get too old (imagewise, not airframe wise) or some new (US built) plane can add quite a bit of new capability.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineRareBear From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 553 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10822 times:

The Presidential 707's were designated VC-137s. They were tail #'s 26000 and 27000. Aircraft 26000 entered service in 1962 with JFK.


Illegitimus non carborundum
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3629 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10602 times:

Isn't Air Force One the call sign for any flight the president is on - so therefore not specific to the VC-25?

This is technically true, and I appreciate it when people know and acknowledge it, but on the other hand it's a pet peeve of mine whenever someone tries to tell me not to call the VC-25A's Air Force One because they're only called that when the president's on one of them. As you can plainly see on both the Air Force's and Boeing's web sites, this isn't true at all:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/af1/flash.html
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet_print.asp?fsID=131&page=1

Now, if we were all in the Presidential Airlift Group, or if we were all air traffic controllers, then we'd be calling any USAF plane the president's in "Air Force One". It's just a flight number, just like any commercial airplane flight number. But we're not doing technical ops, so we're free to call the VC-25's Air Force One colloquially just like the Air Force and Boeing themselves do. I don't think there's anything wrong with this as long as you understand that there can be other planes called this, depending on what the pres is flying on.

The fact is the VC-25's exist for no other reason than to transport the President of the United States. On any official flight they're on, they will be designated Air Force One. Only ferry or repositioning flights will be designated something else. They exist to be Air Force One, so I think it's fine to call them that (and so does the AF and Boeing).



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineGregg From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10518 times:

Back to the original post. Why no winglets? Well the 747-200 it is based on didn't have winglets. Also, AF1 is primarily used for shorter flights, domestic USA. On shorter flights, the winglets cost fuel, not save it.



User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17055 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10505 times:

Even if it flew long haul, the certification costs would be too high. Only two frames.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 Post contains images Tobetruie : Spacecadet, What a great answer ! Totally agree, a fair analysis. But I'm sorry, I can't add you to respect user, I'm a newbie !!! Note that I'm not i
26 Radelow : Why the hell do you need to bring politics into this discussion Byrdluvs747? Totally tasteless. When I toured the Seattle Museum of Flight I was told
27 Blackbird1331 : Gregg: You beat me to it. Not even every 744 has winglets because they do not fly long haul. We need to go to tech-ops to get a purist's point of view
28 Fokkerf28 : Back to the original post, Why no winglets? I don't believe that the vc-25's are worried about fuel efficiency.
29 CitationJet : The current AF-1 is basically a 747-200 and no -200s have winglets. The US government is not worried about saving fuel on AF1. It would be expensive t
30 Post contains images Boeing nut : Why No Winglets On The Air Force One? Three words,......... in flight refueling.
31 L-188 : OK guys. 1: The aircraft is based on the 747-200 2: Since it is a publicly owned aircraft, it does not need to be certified. 3: Loery designed the pai
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Why No Winglets On The Air Force One?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
The New Air Force One posted Mon Feb 20 2006 03:20:30 by Alaska737
Upper Or Lower Door On Air Force One? posted Fri Feb 3 2006 18:03:25 by TK787
Misuse Of The Term "Air Force One" posted Mon May 16 2005 01:24:29 by AsstChiefMark
Air Force One Lands In MCW On 6500 Ft. Runway posted Wed Oct 20 2004 20:33:10 by Iowaman
# Of Flight Crews On Air Force One posted Thu Jul 22 2004 10:46:21 by 28S
Why Doesn't The Air Force Buy 747F Freighters? posted Tue Sep 25 2001 04:09:34 by FlyBoeing
Air Force One To Changi? posted Sun Nov 12 2006 11:17:31 by Shinkai
Odds Of Flying Air Force One posted Thu Nov 9 2006 02:28:17 by KingAirMan
Air Force One @ FLL posted Tue Oct 24 2006 22:19:47 by Ksonderling
Air Force One Comes To RIC! posted Thu Oct 19 2006 19:06:24 by Fbgdavidson

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format