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BIG Trouble At Boeing  
User currently offlineKatanapilot From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 170 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9585 times:

Wild Stuff!
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/02/arms.boeing.reut/index.html
I had no idea things are so shaky at the top!

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFrugalqxnwa From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9371 times:

Wow, I didn't realise there was that much substance to the story! If I were in charge of this, I would start the copeetition from sccratch again. Although, since I am not in charge, I can say that I hope Boeing still gets the deal.

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9222 times:

I think starting the competition over is just the beginning. There needs to be some consequence for this kind of wrongdoing not only within the Air Force but also at Boeing. They knew they were buying influence on the inside to improperly get bloated contracts and to get confidential information about the competition. I know Boeing has fired some executives but it seems like there could be some criminal liability on Boeing's and those former exec's part.

User currently offlineNavion From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9186 times:

I don't think there will be any sanction against Boeing but to be fair the Tanker deal will probably be reopened for new bids. You'll note that Ms. Druyun acted on her own regarding inflating any deals. Notice there is no mention of Boeing requesting this. Boeings problem in the whole deal was the improper hiring and the tanker pricing shenanigans. For that they are certainly and rightly paying a price. Boeing (and everyone else) were apparently unaware that Ms. Druyun took it upon herself to "reward" her future employer or to "sweeten up" the AWACS deal as a reward to Boeing for employing her son-in-law. While this may lead to a complete renegotiation of the Tanker contract, I don't believe this implicates any wrongdoing to Boeing. Boeings fault for which they have been paying dearly was in the hiring of Ms. Druyun either as a condition of or for pricing information on the Tanker deal. Mike Sears, the former head of Boeings defense unit, has lost his job over this ethical breach. One important note, it is very common, usual, and customary for aerospace companies to hire qualified individuals out of the military. This deal for Ms. Druyun violated Boeings own ethics rules as well as the law.

User currently offlineFLY2LIM From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7622 times:

I heard this story about three or four months ago, if I recall correctly. It is not "breaking news". The new part is, I believe, that she was sentenced.
FLY2LIM



Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

For those who think she was acting alone, please, the fact that there were others involved cannot get any clearer than this. She pretty much bought her employment with Boeing. Also, her daughter and son in law work for Boeing, which she states was a reason why she felt indebted to the company. I wonder if she has received more bribe out of Boeing. I also think Boeing should be barred from the refueler tank bidding process (but of course, it won't and it is guaranteed that it will get it - or we will get back to the freedom fries debate all over again).

User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7080 times:


Please, this goes on all over the globe. Sure, Boeing got caught. I'm sure it will happen again. This is a global problem, not Boeing alone.

Remember people. "He who has the Gold makes the Rules." You may not like it, you may fight to prevent it, but you will never stop it.

Time to wake up from your naps.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6788 times:

I wonder if there was ever a Canadian Prime Minister who took a bribe from Airbus?

Ruscoe


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Good question Ruscoe. The RCMP sure thought there was something to that story.

When the Pentagon does re-evaluate the whole deal, I do not think Airbus will prevail in the end for political reasons.

But that happens in Europe as well. Pratt & Whitney actually won the contract to supply engines for the A400M which they would have built in Germany. PW was going to use a proven engine core for the derivative.

The EU was not happy with the result and re-opened the process and awarded the contract to a higher cost European bidder with an unproven engine design.



User currently offlineN754PR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5788 times:

Not very good is it!!

User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5362 times:

Ruscoe, yes, there was word of that, but the PM has been cleared on the issue unlike the person who is the topic of this story.

User currently offlineWarren747sp From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

Comma, ETStar, Do you really think that a clearing means that it did not take place?


747SP
User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 585 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Boeing's problem is that it is so inept at this sort of thing, a bunch of dorks who always get caught.

User currently offlineAa717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5064 times:

I guess President Kerry will have a quandry: Appease his masters in Europe or keep jobs in the U.S.... Insane TC


FL450, M.85
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4795 times:

We can only pray the 7E7 technology wasn't stolen from Airbus too Big grin


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3922 times:


"Appease his masters in Europe or keep jobs in the U.S.... "

AA717Driver,

When you are talking about airline managment or investors, you can barely conceal your hammer and sickle attitude but now Kerry has "masters in Europe." Give me break.

I am a Republican of the old school. One that can tell the difference between a real conservative (Reagan) and a "neo-conservative" (Richard Perle and Dick Cheney). I suggest you figure out the difference and then see who is truly is is truly beholden to a "master."


***************

Boeing will end up building those planes in all likelihood but they better ready to sell at cost or close to it.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Back in the 70s a Japanese government toppled over bribes from Lockheed (I think it was for a contract concerning F-104s), also in Germany a former defense minister got himself into deep sh*t for accepting bribes from Lockheed, also about the procurement of F-104s.

Jan


User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

As some people here, I don't think it's a Boeing only problem, and yes, it was shown to the world some months ago.
I don't Airbus is totally clean, nor any company.

Do you remember the Lockheed thing in the netherlands? (that's some people call KLM "Koop Lockheed Majesteit" , "Buy Lockheed Majesty").



I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Boeing has been indirectly bribing many countries in order to get orders from them. Bribes don't always have to be in the direct form, as in cash exchanging hands. If and airline like Ethiopian Airlines tried ordering an Airbus product, all hell would break loose because the US politicians would be directly on the country's case, communicating directly with the Ethiopian government and raising issues such as the $$$ in aid the US pours into the country to feed its people. Saudi Arabian and its all-American aircraft is another example, and the issue with China Airlines ordering Airbus aircraft and all senators writing letters to the Taiwanese government saying that they have always supported them etc is definitely a form of bribery AND subsidy. So, Boeing does not need to give bribes directly to those airlines (and I am not saying Airbus does either). I also think whoever these lawmakers are should be putting their minds and work towards what is to benefit the people they represent, and not a company that should be standing on its own.

I still wonder about the Airbus 340 ET ended up returning, and that issue with the American bank that went crazy when ET paid off its high interest debt way "prematurely" still puzzles me.


User currently offlineNW7E7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 534 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

So..is the 767 tanker deal finalized yet?

User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Remember that Boeing also stole proprietory information, cost and technical data, from Lockheed that gave them an edge over their rival for the EELV program. So this is not just a U.S. vs. Europe issue. Boeing was involved in unethical activity vis-a-vis Lockheed, too.


An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlinePmg1704 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Good for the government and DoD for pursuing the issue and not sweeping it under the rug. As Eisenhower said, "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

ETStar, you talk about industry-political relations as though that situation is unique to Boeing or the airline industry. I can't imagine you really believe this.

The politicians ARE keeping in mind the people that they represent. See the below article about China's acquisition of Airbus aircraft following a meeting between Jiang Zemin and Jaques Chirac, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_company_file/483476.stm

To quote Chirac, "This is good for Europe, good for France and good for employment,"


User currently offlineETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Antares, the mountain is located more than 100 miles south of Seattle, while Boeing's plants are north of Seattle, so I doubt that there are concerns with volcanic ash. And wasn't that mountain supposed to errupt some time today?

Pmg1704, while I understand that both governments are doing it for the people they represent in terms of economy/employment, I also resent the the attitude that is exhibited on A.net claiming that Airbus and the Europeans are the only ones that are wrong while turning a blind eye on what their home grown companies are up to. All companies worldwide are given subsidies (once again, direct or indirect) through cheap loans, tax breaks etc. which are designed to get their economies going, so why is it so bad when the EU gives out the subsidies directly and does not deny it? And no, I do not think that this is only limited to the airline industry, but raise the issue as this forum is dedicated to this industry. I for one am glad to see that this issue is out in the open...


User currently offlineBaw716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2028 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2607 times:

It would seem like there has been some "stuff" going on between Ms. Druyen and Boeing. There are probably others involved...I can buy into that. It makes me wonder a little if the US government (or certain players there) are feeding this business to Boeing to buff them up a little? After all, Boeing has been fighting the European government subsidy issue with Airbus for awhile now and don't seem to be getting anywhere.

Note: I am NOT saying or proposing that they are linked. I am just wondering if there are some in the government who feel the need to buff up Boeing on the defense side (which in this case would be BCAC, because they would build the airframes)?

Note2: I am just asking a question. I have no thoughts one way or the other yet, because I don't have enough facts. Maybe someone on this forum can help some of us understand it a little better.



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

"raising issues such as the $$$ in aid the US pours into the country to feed its people"

What a horrible thing to do!  Insane

I guess reciprocal purchase agreements that are often part of major aerospace deals are also a form of bribe then.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineContact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Ahhh, I love a good argument over the tanker deal!!!!

(And I'm sad to say that the KC-767A seems to be a prime candidate for the pool of tankers Norway is considering joining)


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