Arrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2646 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3958 times:
"The Snowbirds are old aircraft. Their continued operation serves no economic purpose, and only wastes Cdn tax dollars."
Not the greatest timing for a comment like this.
Old doesn't mean bad. The reason they can perform intricate formation flying with 9 aircraft and put on an incredible show within sight of the crowd is the stability and maneuvrability of the relatively-slow Tutor.
The big name acts -- Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, etc. fly such fast, high performance aircraft they couldn't possibly match the kinds of displays put on by the Snowbirds, and that's why the Snowbirds are as popular in the U.S. as they are. The two styles complement each other very nicely. Look at what some of the European display teams fly -- aircraft with similar performance envelopes.
No economic purpose? We spend billions on things like bogus gun registries and sponsorship contracts; what was the economic purpose in that? If economic purpose were the only criteria there's lots of things government wouldn't do.
The Snowbirds run on a shoestring. Compare their budget with the Blue Angels and you'll get a shock. It's a national institution Canadians should be proud of, and I suspect most of them are.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Peterpuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 318 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3900 times:
Yyz717 is 100% wrong. They are great ambassadors for Canada, and are known the world over. The Snowbirds deserve a larger buget if anything. Like Arrow said, our tax dollars go towards a lot of worthless things, but these guys are not one of them.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3865 times:
Yyz717, I strongly disagree. The Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Snowbirds, etc, are high morale and highly effective military recruiters. The fact that your country has such a superb team and you don't support it is disappointing. The CT-114 Tutor is a cheap plane to fly/maintain as jets go, and their show is exquisite. I've never seen someone so vehement in their dislike for a national team, it seems perhaps more is there below the surface.
I don't have the figures for the Snowbirds, but the Blue Angels are seen by 15 MILLION people a year, which is surely a great tool of pride, recruiting and ambassadorship.
And your point about 1 pilot dying while performing is almost laughable. More people die each year from crossing the street, running into deer in an auto, choking, ect, then in airshow performances. Accidents will happen, but they happen way less in professional aviation than in any other transportation category.
The Snowbirds are not a circus. They are an exhibitionary example of your military, they are highly skilled and put on a great show. You do a disservice to your country by lambasting them like you have.
Peterpuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 318 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3597 times:
It's a disservice to our country every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't realise how many MILLIONS of people see the Snowbirds annually. Over 100 million in 25 years. I have friends from every part of Europe, and they certainly do know who the Snowbirds are.
Besides, airshows pay the team to fly for them, so how much would the taxpayer really save. Not much.
WrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3575 times:
Yyz717 Here's a list of the shows the 'Birds did last year. Are you sure you can say that the majority of Canadians don't know who they are.
* Denotes Canadian show
*Year-End Show - Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
Fleet Week – San Francisco, California
Kern County Airshow – Ridgecrest, California
California International Airshow – Salinas, California
Airshow – Tucumcari, New Mexico
McConnell Air Force Base Open House – Wichita, Kansas
*Airshow – Sherbrooke, Quebec
*Nova Scotia International Air Show – Halifax, Nova Scotia
*Canadian National Exhibition Airshow – Toronto, Ontario
*Brant United Way Airshow – Brantford, Ontario
*Niagara Wings and Wheels – St. Catharines, Ontario
*Air Demonstration – Lynn Lake, Manitoba
*Canada Remembers Airshow – Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
I*nternational Airshow – Abbotsford, British Columbia
*CHILD Foundation Air Display – White Rock, British Columbia
*International Airshow – Lethbridge, Alberta
*Airshow – Wetaskiwin, Alberta
*Airshow – Prince George, British Columbia
*Air Demonstration – Williams Like, British Columbia
*Airshow – Watson Lake, Yukon
*DC’s First Ever Airshow – Dawson Creek, British Columbia
*Air Show & Canadian Forces Day – Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
*Air Demonstration – Inuvik, North West Territories - Cancelled
*Cold Lake International Air Show – 4 Wing Cold Lake, Alberta
Air Fair 2004 – Muskegon, Michigan
*Canada Day Flypast – Ottawa, Ontario
*London International Air Fest – London, Ontario
*“L’Aérofête en Beauce” Airshow – Saint-Georges, Quebec
*Lafleur – Agri-Marché” Airshow – Saint-Isidore, Quebec
*Great Canadian Fly In – Sarnia, Ontario
*Operation Vimy Glide 2004 – Hanover, Ontario
*Airshow – Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
*Airshow – Virden, Manitoba
*Winnipeg International Airshow – Winnipeg, Manitoba
*Airshow – Rivière-du-Loup, Quebec
*Air Demonstration – Stephenville, Newfoundland
*Airshow– Summerside, Prince Edward Island
*Air Demonstration - Grande-Vallée, Quebec
Airshow - Andrews Air Force Base Joint Services Open House - Andrews AFB, Maryland
Airshow - Wilmington, North Carolina
Vidalia Onion Festival & Air Show – Vidalia, Georgia
Air & Sea Show – Fort Lauderdale, Florida
*Acceptance Show - Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
Spring Training - Comox, British Columbia
Tryouts and Training - Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
*2003 Heritage Classic Hockey Game Flypast - Edmonton, Alberta
*2003 Grey Cup Flypast - Regina, Saskatchewan
The Snowbirds and the Skyhawks are PR tools that cost very little but provide positive exposure of the Canadian Military to the general public.
So before you belittle these guys any further get your facts straight, and plaese keep your slef loathing liberal politics out of a thread thatwas a news story and aplace for people to pay their respects.
Yes I am biased, over the years I have known quite a few of the team, both techs and pilots.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16121 posts, RR: 57 Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3500 times:
I've never seen someone so vehement in their dislike for a national team, it seems perhaps more is there below the surface......You do a disservice to your country by lambasting them like you have.
Actually, an article in the Globe and Mail raised all the issues I did. The costs, the value, etc etc etc. I actualy do a SERVICE to my country when I qurestion what I see as government waste. The Snowbirds costs $10M/years and they serve no other purpose than airshows.
It's a disservice to our country every time he opens his mouth.
Peter, I suggest you read the rules about anet. Personal attacks can have you banned permanently. Keep the discussion professional and adult-like if you can. If you want to belong to a foum where everyone agrees with you, go find another one. It ain't here buddy.
He doesn't realise how many MILLIONS of people see the Snowbirds annually. Over 100 million in 25 years. I have friends from every part of Europe, and they certainly do know who the Snowbirds are.
I fail to see how this benefits Canadian taxpayers.
he Snowbirds and the Skyhawks are PR tools that cost very little
The cost is $10M. This is alot.
So before you belittle these guys any further get your facts straight, and plaese keep your slef loathing liberal politics out of a thread
Actually I'm a conservative who questions government waste. If you dont like it, go elsewhere. Adeath is the perfect time to question the value of this aerial circus act,
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Cancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3339 times:
damn. what a shame, i loved thier show. i was out in KSNS working fueling when they were performing at the airshow there. they're a cool bunch of pilots. i'll never forget the answer they all gave me when i asked where moose's jaw is. they said it was about 6 feet from the moose's a$$.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
Wilsonjcobb From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 31 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3291 times:
I was fortunate to get to the Dayton airshow in July 2003 when the 100th year of powered flight was celebrated. An unprecedented thing happened. The Thunderbirds, Blue Angels, and Snowbirds were all at the show all four days. All three performed the same day all four days. Now i'll be the first to tell you that to me the louder the show the better so that why i would favor our two jet teams in the states. However, during the two days I went the Snowbirds recieved more applause because of their precision and the gracefulness of their show. It sounds like Yyz17 is against airshows period. Like was mentioned they are a recruiting tool and are the goodwill ambasadors for Canada. These are supposed to be fun forums and leave the politics out of it. They are an awesome dispay and you are in the minority!! Deal With it.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3210 times:
Yvz717, if you were in charge of the world it would be a boring world indeed. Instead of being thankful for aerial displays that are beautiful, you have to define them monetarily. I've always been into aircraft, but it was seeing the Blue Angels as a kid and seeing an F-15 doing a full afterburner climb to 10,000'+ climb vertically that left an indelable yearning in my heart to fly. Even coldhearted Russia showcased their aviation and military might during the cold war to stem national pride and showcase their might. What kind of romanticless soul looks at a team as talented as a national one and only thinks dollars and cents? I thank God I'm not like you. Every time I get to see pilots as good as those fly machines as good as they have, I feel priviledged and grateful. Money is spent far worse in far more ways then to have the general public see the best their military has to offer in skill.
We are different, that is for sure, but I feel sorry for your lack of romanticism and zeal. Flying is all about romance, freedom and empowerment of the spirit. You seem to recognize none of these. For that, I feel sad for you.
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16121 posts, RR: 57 Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 day ago) and read 3126 times:
Yvz717, if you were in charge of the world it would be a boring world indeed. Instead of being thankful for aerial displays that are beautiful, you have to define them monetarily.
Yes, I define most things from a bottom line perspective. But hey, that's me. I'm as much of an aircraft spotter as anyone, but when someone dies in the most superfluous of flying (a non-revenue generating flying circus), it is appropriate to raise the issue of validity.
I thank God I'm not like you......I feel sorry for your lack of romanticism and zeal.
I have the same romanticism and zeal as you do. Until someone dies. Then I ask the hard hitting questions. It's a shame you don't.
I feel sad for you.
Dont. Feel sad for the dead man's family.
ANYWAY, it was reported today that 3 on-call rescue helicopters that served as an emergency response for the Snowbirds, were CANCELLED in 2000 due to a lack of funding. This is outrageous! It took 47 minutes to reach the injured airman. I find it outrageous that the safety helicopters were cancelled but the Snowbird aerial shows were not.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Peterpuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 318 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (9 years 22 hours ago) and read 3109 times:
The guy died doing what he was passionate about. Money isn't the most important thing in the world to most people. I too feel sorry for you Yyz, your bottom line perspective gives you a very negative outlook on life.
You know what, people die in bathtubs more than airshows. Maybe we should ask some hard hitting questions about the need for bath mats.
Lorm From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (8 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3048 times:
I too feel sorry for you Yyz, your bottom line perspective gives you a very negative outlook on life.
Someone has to think of the bottom line perspective. Of course as a 721F pilot, you never have to.
ou know what, people die in bathtubs more than airshows. Maybe we should ask some hard hitting questions about the need for bath mats.
Fine. Then raise that issue in batmats.net. This is an av site.
This is an aviation enthusiasts website. If you really feel that strongly Yyz717, about Snowbirds being a waste of government funds this is the wrong place. You should talk to your nearest government official, or join the political ranks and do something about it.
I've witnessed the Snowbirds awhile back at an airshow at Westover AFB, I was really young and hardly remember them. But having been to many an airshow and witnessing many air displays I can't help but think of how enjoyable and influential each one is.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2081 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (8 years 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3031 times:
Yyz717, you are so off base.
The worst air disaster in the history of aviation was 2 747's at Tenerife, Canary Islands. Not one pilot dying, but almost 600 people dying, all but the crew being innocent passengers. So should we rethink air travel? Nope. Shit happens.
Someone died, and you want to ask hard hitting questions. Hmmm. I could understand your position if the guy was forced into it. If its anything like the US show teams, its VOLUNTARY. They chose to do it. Its a priviledge and an honor. If you don't believe me, ask any one of them from any team. Pick the nation yourself. See if any of them feel indentured to be serving on a national jet team. They wouldn't have it any other way, and they know the risk. You couldn't be further off the mark on this one.
As far as generating money, is that really your criteria? You must be kidding. So if Patty Wagstaff charges a hotel, a rental car, gas and $2,000 dollars as a private citizen to do her show, that's ok, but a military showcase used for recruitment and national pride is not? Surely you jest.
Money is not the issue here. These pilots are doing what they want to do, and are envied for having that option. They are professionals, volunteers, and flying aircraft in tip top shape. Can they meet fate that way? Sure, but so can you driving to work tomorrow, or crossing the street, or out in a lightning storm.
I'm going to let let this argument die. But the performer wants to be there, the spectators want to see them, and the cost is negligable in the big picture. You are making much ado where there is no reason to, and need to reevaluate what is making you feel this way.
CPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4761 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (8 years 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3078 times:
The sad thing is, when you call the CFB Moose Jaw switchboard, you are greeted by an auto attendant:
"Thank you for Calling CFB Moose Jaw. If you are calling about an aircraft incident, please press X. Otherwise, please enter your extension number at any time".
It may have changes over the past year as I no longer have a job doing business with that base, I do not recall any other bases that having such a greeting.
Personally, I think maintaining a small fleet of Tutors with ever-dwindling spares just for the Snowbirds is getting a little silly. I think they either need to transition to the CT-155 (Hawk) or cancel the program. To be honest, the Snowbirds aren't my cup of tea but at least give them credit for not trying to compete with the Blue Angels/Thunderbirds and having some originality.