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The Eurofighter/Typhoon?  
User currently offlineVSIVARIES From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 108 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5800 times:

Hi all,
This is about the Typhoon Eurofighter which I must say has turned out to be a pretty good piece of kit.

There are many things to talk about i.e. wing design, unique cockpit design etc. and if you guys want to develop that later then up to you.

Two things occurred to me though. Now we have it is it out of date already? We (UK) seriously delayed the programme because after the end of the cold war we decided it wasn’t that important to have air to air scrappers – after Iraq (1) we decided tactical ground attack aircraft were more important and this really threw the project sideways while the engineers had to re-think the plane.

The second thing is simple – have a look at these four excellent videos at;

http://www.eurofighter.com/Medialibrary/Video/

My personal favorite is

Highres gabriels Oboe1.mpg

Where the Typhoon, which is a machine built for complete and utter devastation dances around gracefully and elegantly to loveley classical music that is just……. Beautiful.  Big grin

BR

Richard

PS. I searched and could not see this one before If I’m wrong then sorry.

edit due to missing word.


[Edited 2005-01-16 02:42:56]


For every action there is always an unequal but mostly similar reaction.
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSpencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1635 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

Out of date...nah, I don't think so. It has just taken a while to come about, especially with the 8 years testing (according to Mark bowman, test pilot). What is there that can match it's phenomenal agility in the air? The Rafale, the JAS39 Gripen, the F35; or maybe the Sukhoi SU-37(TVC) and MiG/MAPO 1.44? (I think the latter two are still only prototypes though, anybody?). And if the USAF can afford the US$200m F-22, (first 5th generation?), perhaps even that?
Spencer.



EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13193 posts, RR: 77
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

The UK did not delay the programme, a lot of time was lost in 1992/3 when Germany quit the project for a time.

While a Commons committee found that had the project been an all UK programme, costs and time would have ended up being reduced as things turned out, the fact is the initial costs of a national programme would have likely killed it when the Cold War ended.

As to this spurious 'out of date' argument, can we honestly say that during the 25-30 year service life of the aircraft, a potential opponent definitely will not appear with agile fighters?
In any case, the aircraft has for a long time been envisaged as being more multi role than the press seem to think, as early as the mid 80's, RAF planning had the aircraft replacing strike/attack Jaguars as well as Phantoms and Tornado F.3s.

Tranche 2, now ordered, will be more multi role.

If Typhoon is out of date, not needed in world where no enemy will be able to challenge in the air to air environment, then so is F-22 and Rafale.

F-35 is primarily a strike fighter, with decent air to air capability, a much later design that will not be available until after the end of this decade.
F-35, as JSF, came out of a need to replace a range of US aircraft, F-16, F-18, AV-8B, unlike the Cold War one aircraft would have to replace all, such were the realities of the post Cold War world.

In RAF/RN service, the VSTOL version will be a Harrier replacement, maybe some RAF spec, land based, F-35C's could be part of a Tornado GR.4 replacement, along with probably an undefined as yet UCAV, but don't rule out Tranch 3 Typhoons being part of this as well.


User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

Well, it has no serious

- thrust vectoring
- stealth
- supercruise
- phased array radar (& its capabilities)

that is because is designed in the eighties

It costs a lot. Many people would eat the pants before the ackowlegde but e.g. the JSF is a generation ahead of the Typhoon.

Value for money is questionable IMO, but it's unthinkable it will be stopped at this point..








User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5450 times:

GDB:

The Brits are building CTOL capability into their carriers for a reason.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5440 times:

The UK did not delay the programme, a lot of time was lost in 1992/3 when Germany quit the project for a time.

Actually, both delayed the development of the Typhoon. Germans came first, than the UK.

Well, it has no serious

- thrust vectoring


Is under development, and the Eurofighter is already VERY agile.

- stealth

The Eurofighter does have a small radar crossection, but stealthyness is overrated anyway.

- supercruise

The Eurofighter flies Mach 1.2 without afterburner.

- phased array radar (& its capabilities)

The radar they currently use (called Captor) has a longer range than current phased array radars, thus giving the Eurofighter a serious "first shoot" capability. Modern technologies aren't always better.

It costs a lot.

Right. But still less than an F15 or Rafale - not to mention the F/A-22.

Many people would eat the pants before the ackowlegde but e.g. the JSF is a generation ahead of the Typhoon.

Depends. I would say it' max. half a generation ahead, and as GDB said F-35 is more a strike aircraft rather than an air superiority fighter.

[Edited 2005-01-17 16:04:45]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5395 times:

Stealth overrated ?
Who says so, EADS?

I don't know the details but the Rafale has an electronically-scanned-array radar so instead of "track while scan" it can "track here while scan there."

The newest F15, JSF, Sukhoi's & F18F/G, F22 also have AESA for good reason. The multi functionality is superior..

Thrust vectoring "Is under development, and the Eurofighter is already VERY agile."
Why doesn't it have Thrust Vectoring? It is not what we would call "brand new technology"..

The rafale also looks sleaker IMO..


IMO the Typhoon is like the Tornado, a compromise between to many countries..

Well, at least the German Phantom/ Tornado pilots and English Tornado pilots won't be bashed around that easy anymore by friendly F18s, F16s and F15s in dogfight training sessions..


User currently offlineKukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

As soon as the F35 is in service with the RAF and RN, the Typhoon will look like yesterday's machine. If they were developing it now they would surely make it stealthy.


Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5387 times:
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The Typhoon is a serious improvement in capability for all the nations involved.

It is superior in meaningful ways to the current 3rd generation fighters out there, F-15, SU-27, Viggen, Tornado F.3, as well as all the 2d gen fighters still serving (F-4, MiG-21/23, Draken, F-5, even the now finally almost gone Starfighter) so it is worth the investment by the involved nations.

COuld it be better? Sure. When you take too long to gestate an aircraft that was a compromise in the first place you will own an airplane that is still slightly behind the times when the 5th gen fighters come on line at the same time. The F/A-22 is a reality now, and is and will be there in numbers yet to be decided, but sufficent to dominate any airbattle in the foreseeable future.
The F-35 has thrust vectoring and a slightly less bit of stealth, and lacks supercruise, but will represent another dominant aircraft with unbested BVR capability as well as the ability to be upgraded over its life.

The Typhoon will find the only the F/A-22 as its superior, and the F-35 it's equal in most air-air situations...perhaps enjoying a speed edge while the F-35 holds the maneuverability advantage. They will both employ the same types of BVR missiles, and are unlikely to find themselves facing each other in anything other than controlled DACT scenarios so the differences are purely academic.

Nations who are looking at the Typhoon that do not have a manufacturing stake will find serious competition from the Rafale and the F-15E series. The advantages to this airplane are in its multi-role capabilities as well as its speed and maneuverability. The leap forward this aircraft represents over the Jaguar, Tornado, Phantom and Starfighter for the member nations is incredible and will be felt through the ability to accomplish more missions more effectively and do so with the fewer aircraft that the miserly budget crunchers will allow the Air Forces.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13193 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

Both phased array and thrust vectoring are planned for Tranche 3.
As well as maybe fuselage conformal fuel tanks.
Maybe better to build the basic aircraft and upgrade later, the current UK air staffs will likely be aware of how their predecessors 'gold plating' of past projects resulted in delays and often, cancellation.

The Typhoon nations are to arm it in time with the new Meteor AAM, now while F-35B in UK service will have AMRAAM, there are no plans to arm it with Meteor, not only will it not fit in the weapon bays but it would be an expensive exercise to intergrate it for external wing carriage, as well as systems wise.
So for the UK, the Typhoon will still have the most potent air to air capability, in any case the F-35 will be mainly a strike aircraft, though if it wants to carry the Storm Shadow weapon that too will be an external carriage, as the weapon is both long range and stealthy, not so much of a compromise for F-35 low observable, however it is highly likely that Typhoon will carry this weapon too.

Officially, the CVF carriers are to be constructed with the potential for CTOL, as over the 50 year life of these vessels, a STOVL F-35B replacement might not happen, of course they also had one eye on a possible US cancellation of F-35B, something the USN would no doubt welcome, stuff the USMC requirements!
With the USAF expressing interest in F-35B to complement their F-35A's, with it seems weight issues being resolved, I'd say the F-35B is looking much more secure now.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

Stealth overrated ? Who says so, EADS?

EADS as well as the Russians and even Americans admit that stealth is not everything.

Typhoon's design focuses on superior agility not stealth. It's pretty difficult and therefore expensive to have it both, not to mention the limited weapons load an internal bay provides.

I don't know the details but the Rafale has an electronically-scanned-array radar so instead of "track while scan" it can "track here while scan there."

All nice but as long as Captor tracks you first, you are likely to get killed. Rafale's radar does not have the range of Captor, that's why the Eurofighter consortium chosed not to implement something similar. This technology will be superior one day, but right now it is still in its infancy.

The newest F15, JSF, Sukhoi's & F18F/G, F22 also have AESA for good reason. The multi functionality is superior..

Of all the aircraft types you have mentioned, only the F/A-22 is superior compared to Typhoon, and that's not because the radar is better. The US Navy payed a similar fly-away price for their new F/A-18, 'though this plane can certainly not compete with Typhoons - at least not when it comes to air-to-air capabilities.

And of all types mentioned, only Sukhois are possible contrahents.
A Swedish group examined a comparison between different fighters and came to the conclusion that opponents will loose 9-10 Su-27 for every Typhoon lost. A British group later did a similar resarch but used a (non-existent) Su-35 as opponent. The result: 4.5:1.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_2000s_fighter_aircraft

Why doesn't it have Thrust Vectoring? It is not what we would call "brand new technology"..

How many planes do have thrust vectoring? The Harrier does not count! It's a VTOL-airplane and uses a completely different technology then needed for a plane like Typhoon.
The only fighters in service that have a compareable thrust vectoring are India's brand new Su-30MKI. Than there is the brand new F/-22. And that's about it.

The rafale also looks sleaker IMO..

And a banane looks more yellowish. Totally irrelevant.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5342 times:

The only fighters in service that have a comparable thrust vectoring are India's brand new Su-30MKI. Than there is the brand new F/-22. And that's about it.

Well there is a project called JSF.. Not only Sukhoi has introduced thrust vectoring, Mig also might apply it on next Mig29 generations..



I was surprised eurofighter didn´t have thrust vectoring after the significant investments eads did in the X31.. http://www.machtres.com/x31.jpg

I seriously doubt the studies comparing the russian and western fighters. I know the USAF had to adjust their studies recently taking on su30s with their best (AESA equipped) f15s.

I also know the combination helm mounted visor / high of borescope AA-11 of mig29s and su27s made the western airforces adjust their tactics, "avoid confrontation" popping up all over the training manuals & spurring development of the sidewinder-x.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

No AESA equipped F-15's were involved in the Copa exercises...


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5299 times:

Well there is a project called JSF..

Completely different animal. A VSTOL aircraft surely needs something like vectored thrust. But it will still take a while before we see the JSF in service.

Not only Sukhoi has introduced thrust vectoring, Mig also might apply it on next Mig29 generations.

And EADS will offer thrust vectoring on tranche 3 Typhoons. Contrary to the Su-30MKI and the F/A-22, the Mig 29 with thrust vectoring is so far only a demonstrator.
And ask some pilots at Laage AFB how both, Mig-29s and Typhoons, compete to each other.

You may say you miss thrust vectoring. But saying Typhoon "has no serious (capabilities or whatever)" meaning that Typhoon is already outdated is simply wrong.

[Edited 2005-01-18 02:55:20]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineKEESJE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5265 times:



But saying Typhoon "has no serious (capabilities or whatever)"

Lets stick to what I said ..

Well, it has no serious
- thrust vectoring
- stealth
- supercruise
- phased array radar (& its capabilities)


that Typhoon is already outdated is simply wrong
I saying it is not good enough for a plane that is starting to be introduced now, must fly on for at least 20 years and already needs significant upgrades/rebuild (engines, radar) to meet close-by requirements..


User currently offlineEhvk From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5231 times:

Well i do think that the plane is launched at the right time. i think it will cast atleast another 5 years (if it aren't 10) before the JFS become's in active service. it is just at the right time to release the italian F-104's and the german F-4's and the british jaguar. I also think there will come some other costumers aswell for who the JSF is to expencive.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13193 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

Some Tranche 2 Typhoons will replace Jaguar, not so much on a direct squadron converting basis, but in terms of capability.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

The 4.5:1 figure for the Typhoon is 10.1:1 for the F-22.

I imagine that stealth has a role in that.


User currently offlineCo737800 From Canada, joined Dec 2003, 545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

I would like to know who ordered the Typhoon? Could it take on the F22 or the F15 and win?

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5109 times:

Co737800, the four partner nations - UK, Germany, Italy and Spain - have ordered 620 aircraft. Austria ordered 18 and Greece 60 (+30 options).

As for the F/A-22 or F-15 comparison: whilst Typhoon would be inferior to the F/A-22, it would likely win against an F-15. Not only does the comparison chart (see my post above and the link to wikipedia) say so. British pilots already had a harmless battle against F-15, and it is said they pretty much embarassed them.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineEhvk From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5094 times:

i think that it is not only the plane that can win or lose a battle. i think that the pilot is the bigest question.

User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

A C172 could, under the right circumstances, take on the F/A-22 etc. and win.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
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