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USS San Francisco Accident  
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8996 times:

Anybody heard how deep this sub was when it hit? How close did it come to an inner hull breach?

Silent Service almost had a very bad day IMO.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/27/submarine.damaged/index.html

86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8764 times:

http://www.navy.mil/view_gallery.asp?category_id=17


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSidishus From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8651 times:


Not sure what this has to do with airliners, but I understand the were at 400-700 feet..Here is a first hand account:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Defensewatch%20Special%203.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=3&rnd=132.15421036518714




the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
User currently offlineSidishus From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8627 times:

I'll bet they are counting their lucky stars that this was one of the earlier LA class boats with the planes on the sail instead of forward on the hull. If the San Francisco had hull planes, the loss of that port plane, or if it had been jammed into the down position, could have caused an entirely different outcome.


the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8618 times:

Sidishus:

The other thing is, fortunately it wasn't a Flight II or 688I boat. However, San Francisco was to remain in commission until 2017. If it can't be repaired, they can always refuel Salt Lake City instead of decommissioning her.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8618 times:

Sorry -- I know it's OT. Didn't want to subject this thread to the Non Av goofiness. Figured you guys would be the ones replying to it anyhow.

Thanks for the pix and sites.

regards


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8560 times:

One things for sure, there's a sub captain who's career is now over.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29690 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8555 times:

Maybe not LMP737. Although the military does have the habit of being very harsh on mistakes.

They might be able to take it easy on him if in fact it was an uncharted mountain he hit.

It really wouldn't be negligence then.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8548 times:

The CO has already been relieved, if it wasn't scheduled his career as a sub driver is probably done.

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8527 times:

L188:

Four years in the Navy tells me that his career is done. When I was in I saw CO's get relieved for things minor in comparison to grounding your ship/sub and having crewmen injured and killed.


User currently offlineNorm1153 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 10 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8469 times:
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My ignorance will be showing, but I'm just too curious:

When moving underwater, as in this case, don't they run some sort of forward-looking radar or sonar to watch for obstructions?

Thanks,
Norm


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

Norm1153:

Using active sonar would give the position of the sub away. That's why subs mainly depend on charts for underwater navigation. Unfortunately for the USS San Francisco they ran into an uncharted sea mount.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

That's silly. He shouldn't get relieved for something that wasn't his fault.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8431 times:

The first hand account offered in Sidishus' post is very interesting.

So they were going at their 'top speed'. Anyone have an idea what the top speed for a sub like that is? And anyone know what depths it is capable of.. I know they were at 500' when it happened.

It is amazing and I am glad that only one person died. From what I read it could have been a lot worse.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 8429 times:

Folks -- The boat was going pretty much full throttle when it hit the mountain. At that speed the sonar is probably pretty close to useless. I understand sub drivers stop periodically to "listen" for other objects in the water. Could be the CO in this case didn't stop often enough. In any case the skipper is ALWAYS responsible for anything that happens to his crew and boat on the high seas.

User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8405 times:

That's silly. He shouldn't get relieved for something that wasn't his fault.


Yes, it was. He, as the Commanding Officer of the boat, is ultimatley responsible for its safe operation.


As far as the top speed, I dont know for sure but our CO here at Purdue NROTC was a submariner for his whole career (nearly 30 years), and said they can hit 30+kts. when submerged.

[Edited 2005-01-29 22:12:09]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8390 times:

N328KF:

It might sound silly to you but that's the way things work in the Navy. Like I said before skippers get relieved for things that might not seem to be their fault. And for things that are not as serious as your vessel running aground.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29690 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8371 times:

Oh I don't disagree that is the way things normally work in the Navy.

I am just saying this guy has a much better defense then that guy that surfaced under that Japanses school ship that one time. At this time there is no indication that his actions contributed directly.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8349 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Future ualpilot....that is the standard answer any submariner will give you if you ask how fast those subs can go. They wont tell you, because its a secret, even though I am sure that our potential enemies already know how fast they'll go.

While I don't think its fair, there is no "fair" when dealing with the safe operation of our nuclear fleet. These are strategic assets, capable of controlling the shipping lanes of the world if we chose, and there is a zero tolerance level for accidents involving damage to the ship. If the inquest clears the captain, he may return, but its doubtful.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8346 times:

L188:

Yes I agree that he has a better defense than the skipper of the Greenville. Since the rock they hit was uncharted I suspect that he won't have to defend himself anyway.


User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8343 times:

Anyone have an idea what the top speed for a sub like that is?

The USN has always been a little bit skittish about naming top speeds for their SSNs along with their diving capabilities and officially states that the maximum speeds of USN SSNs are over 20 knots. More than likely top speed is in the 30-32 knot range.

The boat was going pretty much full throttle when it hit the mountain. At that speed the sonar is probably pretty close to useless. I understand sub drivers stop periodically to "listen" for other objects in the water. Could be the CO in this case didn't stop often enough.

SATL - it's sort of hard to listen for something that doesn't make noise. Passive sonar doesn't detect oceanic topography.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8333 times:

it's sort of hard to listen for something that doesn't make noise. Passive sonar doesn't detect oceanic topography.

Who's talking passive sonar? Not me


User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8325 times:

What's this then?

I understand sub drivers stop periodically to "listen" for other objects in the water. Could be the CO in this case didn't stop often enough.

Sounds to me like you're saying he should have utilized his sonar. If you implied active sonar, sorry, but it's not SOP for SSN skippers to use active sonar as it gives away your position to almost everyone around you.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineSATL382G From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8312 times:

A sub doing 30+ knots is already giving away it's position. Use of active sensors is irrelevant, in this case, to maintaining stealth.

What I'm suggesting is that there's probably more to this story than we are being told.




User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13792 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8290 times:

Even if the sub was only going at 10 kts, with all the mass behind it, it is a lot of kinetic energy. Ever tried to jump off a car going 15 mph or 20 km/h?

Jan


25 LongbowPilot : Wow, aviation enthusiasts and pilots arguing about the underworld of the ocean... To quote C3P0 (Star Wars) "We're doomed."
26 Post contains images HaveBlue : lol Longbow filler
27 Garnetpalmetto : Wow, aviation enthusiasts and pilots arguing about the underworld of the ocean... And maybe it's not occurred to you that perhaps some of us are milit
28 Rg828 : If the inner hull was'nt breached, how deep inside is it? That first pic doe'snt show anything loking like an inner hull. Thank goodness it was'nt an
29 MD11Engineer : I assume that the green reeinforced bulkhead is the anticollision bulkhead and also forms the foward bulkhead of the inner hull (pressure vessel). Jan
30 777ER : Just looking at the damange makes me surprised that the sub is now on a dry dock and everyone is alive.
31 Post contains links Sidishus : If the inner hull was'nt breached, how deep inside is it? That first pic doe'snt show anything loking like an inner hull. The designers considered thi
32 Woodreau : Re: whether the CO will be relieved of his command... In 1996, the CO of the USS Gonzales was relieved of his command when he took his shiny new destr
33 LMP737 : Just heard on the news that the captain of the San Francisco will be facing charges for the grounding of the sub. No details were given.
34 L-188 : Apparently he ignored a sonar test that said the water was shallower then illustrated on the chart prior to the run. And the chart, while not showing
35 747400sp : The crew should thank god that it did not turn out to be a worst accident. I hear than she was taking on a lot of water and had trouble resufacing. My
36 Post contains links LMP737 : Here's an update on this unfortunate accident. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/24/submarine.aground.ap/index.html
37 SATL382G : Thanks for pointing that out LMP737. I don't know what these 6 sailors did but if guilty it was best that they took Captains Mast vs Court Martial. re
38 LMP737 : SATL382G: The article mentioned that the punishment was nonjudicial. Which of course means Captains mast. Let's face it though, their careers are effe
39 Venus6971 : If offered a Art 15 or a court martial take the Art 15, with a Goverment 99% conviction rate I rather take the cash fine and suspended bust over jail
40 SATL382G : For an officer, yes that's true. For enlisted probably not. Hard to tell though, not enough info in the article. I know a couple of guys who lost mul
41 LMP737 : When I was in I knew one chief who had a court martial, when he was junior enlisted, under his belt. One of the chiefs in my squadron had multiple NJ
42 SATL382G : I think were having art 15s really hurts is if you have a hankering for Command Chief. Thank God not many have that as their career goal....
43 Greyhound : Anyone else here a qualified submariner besides me? I think the crew did an outstanding job with damage control. You don't train for that sort of thin
44 DL021 : No question the crew responded properly to the emergency once it happened and thats a testament to the Navy's training program for submariners, and to
45 Greyhound : The Navy's current plans for the USS Usedtofloat are to chop the whole front end off and replace it with the front end of the Atlanta, currently sitti
46 DL021 : I think that would be a good way to make use of the USS Atlanta, which was retired way too young. Are there still stockpiles of submarine parts laying
47 StealthZ : OK, this is really dumb question, If the USS Atlanta is intact, would it not make some sense to recommision even if much new equipment was required ra
48 SATL382G : These are nuke boats... Probably Atlanta was not refueled and overhauled, put to pasture instead. If San Francisco has recently been refueled and ove
49 Garnetpalmetto : Indeed, Atlanta was decommissioned back in 1999 to save costs from having to refuel and overhaul her.
50 Greyhound : As far as other spook boats... as soon as USS Parche was decommed here in Bangor, she IMMEDIATELY went into PSNS to be cut up into scrap. Not joking t
51 DL021 : Off topic, but why are they moving the Maine and Louisiana to Bangor? They have an entire facility at Kings Bay designed specifically for them.
52 Garnetpalmetto : Right now PACFLT's got fewer Ohios in commission since the four being converted to SSGNs belonged to PACFLT and the Ohios undergoing refit to carry t
53 DL021 : I was thinking Bangor Maine, not Washington....sorry for the braincramp.
54 StealthZ : Thanks guys, that makes perfect sense to me now. Although the magnitude of the task just boggles my imagination... I am an IT geek and everthing we d
55 Greyhound : I'm a little limited in what I can say, but the current SLBM in the U.S. inventory, the Trident II (D-5), even has it's own range limits. Can't say fo
56 Post contains links LMP737 : Another update on the USS San Francisco. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/05/07/AR2005050701378.html
57 Jwenting : If the US has complied fully with the latest treaties with the USSR (a.k.a. Russia) all ICBMs and SLBMs are detargeted and have coordinates in the Sar
58 UH60FtRucker : What's the status of those subs? Have any of the refits been completed yet? And are they designing a new cruise missile for the sub, or are they stic
59 Garnetpalmetto : I believe all four are currently in refit and none have been finished yet. Ohio began hers in November 2003, Michigan in October of 2004, Florida in
60 DL021 : I'm actually pretty excited about the development of these renewed Boomers, as they will be something of the replacements for the battlewagons we need
61 Garnetpalmetto : You got to admit though...they lack a certain sexiness that the Iowas had. That clipper bow, those triple turrets - to me the Iowas were one of the m
62 SATL382G : Trouble is a submerged sub just does not do the "fly the flag" mission like a battleship. Even if the sub does a port visit it just won't be the same
63 Greyhound : I would agree... even if you had a modernized cruiser with 100+ missiles bearing down on me... still can't make me crap myself. A warship with 16 inc
64 DL021 : To start with here, I'm a battlewagon fan, and have seen the actual results of the big guns firing. Very impressive, and it has to be a crapper of a d
65 Post contains images SATL382G : Not trying to be argumentative but... Are you saying that we should tell the bad guys where the SSGN is? And doesn't that play havoc with it's primar
66 DL021 : Satl...no sweat... good discussion is not necessarily argument. Heck no....the mere fact that we have the subs and the certain satellite observation o
67 Post contains images SATL382G : So the Taliban and other similar foes we might face in the littorals have a sat recon capability? Let's see Sat recon capable countries: US, UK, Fran
68 Post contains images Woodreau : I haven't checked this thread in a while. My how it's grown... A 1990-era BB carried 32 Tomahawks and 16 Harpoons, so in terms of being a Tomahawk car
69 KC135TopBoom : Those missiles were all in ABLs, the USN doesn't use ABLs anymore. Everything is in VLS. The biggest limitation with VLS equipped warships (CG, DD, D
70 SATL382G : Well the thread was off topic to begin with (neither aviation or space related) so I say go for it....
71 DL021 : great conversation so far guys. Well, them and everyone who can buy SPOT or some other commercial 5 meter resolution imagery before the US requests a
72 SATL382G : Some more SSGN questions here I thought up on my bike ride this afternoon.. Assuming that the other nations in the nuclear club have SOME capability t
73 Post contains links LMP737 : Navy investigation completed. http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=18257
74 DL021 : Important questions. I think that the idea is that our SSBNs are not usually tracked as far as we know, and any potential adversaries out there are no
75 Greyhound : You're right on the treaty requirements. When I rode the Ohio into the yards, if we didn't have the funding for the conversion, we would have been de
76 Post contains images SATL382G : Well let's hope we are more secure than depending on not being hit when we launch cruise missiles from attack subs! That's the same logic NASA used t
77 Post contains images DL021 : Well, I guess we'll have to trust the guys up in the puzzle palace to make sure they keep our asses covered on this issue. Although I really have trou
78 KC135TopBoom : The same guys who are working on DD(X), CG(X), CVN-X, AGS, SSGN, ANSR, SM-3, ERGM, LRLAP, to solve the shortfall in NGFS? Or the same guys who tried
79 Post contains images Woodreau : There is a capability to reload the VLS tubes at sea. But I've never seen it used in the last 11 years. That crane that takes up 3 cells on the VLS l
80 DL021 : Yeah, the irony is leaving an aftertaste already. I don't think that the Navy will do anything more to support the infantry than Congress forces them
81 Post contains images SATL382G : Given the nature of Trekkers/Trekkies and San Francisco I'd venture that SF HQ is probably already up and functioning somewhere in the Bay area... Th
82 Post contains images DL021 : You da man! You know...there is that giant dirigible hangar down at Moffett. Maybe they can retake Treasure Island? Hey, there is some room on Mare I
83 Greyhound : close. The existing launch tubes will have more along the lines of 7 per MAC (Multiple?Mobile?-All-up-round-Canister). I can't remember precisely wha
84 Greyhound : It makes me wonder if they'll ever recommission the San Francisco now... I mean, with the closing of SUBBASE New London, those subs will get dispersed
85 Post contains links SATL382G : Anybody catch 60 Minutes Wednesday? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/18/60II/main696229.shtml Couldn't get a stretcher out of the sail hatch. Yo
86 L-188 : From what I caught of the show he was in a transport sled and on a backboard. I've seen guys packaged for transport with head or spinal injuries, Som
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