I know that many people say the Eurofighter is a French Rafale with a different air duct intake design. This post isn’t really to debate that. But the flying characteristics do say a lot for that argument
BT From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 92 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 24712 times:
Well i think the f22 will beat the typhoon because
- The f22 doesnt need to lite the burners for supersonic flight.
- Typhoon wont pick it up on radar.
- Pilot has more contorl of the plane.
- Signatures/emissions of sound, turbulence, and heat that can aid detection are reduced
- The typhoon will be taken out before he knows what hit him.
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 15 Reply 3, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 24693 times:
I think what our British friend means by "Close quarters scrap" is a dogfight. A condition I presume is placed in order to eliminate the F-22's (I'm sorry, the F/A-22), as well as the entire system of which it is a part, BVR advantage. Levelling the playing field if you will.
It is noteworthy that for the time being the Raptor is the one of the two that has thrust vectoring capability, albeit it is a slightly larger aircraft overall, thus easier to detect visually from certain angles. Other than that both aircraft should be roughly equal, being equipped with HOB close range missiles (combined with HMS/HMDS presumably), well designed cockpits with ergonomic controls/displays and good visibility.
Other than the thrust vectoring issue I can't see much difference between the two, and would have to say that in this case the pilots' skills are likely to be the crucial factors. i.e. going into the fight fuelled by arrogance and ignorance would not be a good thing.
NightHawk117 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 24661 times:
With the ability of stealth, the victory would go to the F/A-22 Raptor.
As the old saying goes....What you can't see, CAN hurt you!
Team Stealth...when it absolutely, positively HAS to be taken out overnight!
HiggSR71 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 24642 times:
NightHawk
You obviously didn't read the original post correctly, actually the only person who did seems to be LY744.
Richards question was
"Which one would come out best in a close quarter scrap?"
By this I presume he is talking about a dogfight,although these new aircraft are highly unlikely to be involved in many dogfights in this day and age the pilots are still trained in close air combat esp dissimilar air combat ie the F15s from Lakenheath regularly go up against all types of RAF aircraft over the UK etc so stealth technology doesn't really come into this debate.
Actually LY744 summed it up quite well with his comments about pilot skill being a fairly critical factor.
A couple of points to clear up
A common misconception from out American friends is that the Typhoon cannot supercruise without afterburner, sorry guys but it can.
Also Richard please note that the Typhoon isn't quite in service yet,yes two RAF squadrons are operating the jet but only from Bae Warton at the moment.
Its still very much in the testing stage, I am not sure when it becomes operational in the RAF but some jets are due to move to Coningsby in the summer of 2005.
Also note Bae have yet to hand over a single seat Typhoon F2 to an RAF squadron yet.
CURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 901 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 24610 times:
I think in a BVR engagement nothing should beat the F-22, it is supposed to be an air DOMINANCE fighter, then a step beyond air superiority. This only would justify the exorbitant cost per unit the program has reached. So (since it hasn't been cancelled) I believe that it must be simply the best fighter by a large gap over the others. If it works, a dogfight is a real unlikely occurrence, anyway if it happens i totally agree with LY744's analysis, the pilot's skills would make the difference.
BTW, the two aircrafts are from allied countries, difficult to imagine a F-22 Vs typhoon war... I'd rather think of F-22 Vs Russian aircrafts (sold to China/DPRK)
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
NoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 6483 posts, RR: 21 Reply 7, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 24579 times:
VSIVARIES: I know that many people say the Eurofighter is a French Rafale with a different air duct intake design. This post isn’t really to debate that. But the flying characteristics do say a lot for that argument
You don't want to discuss it but at the same time you do. So please let me briefly say, that 'though quite similar, they are different aircraft. You should not compare videos but rather the wing load. In that case you would notice that the Rafale's strength is more the A/G role. Typhoons are foremost A/A fighter.
BT: Pilot has more contorl of the plane.
How do you know?
LY744: Other than that both aircraft should be roughly equal, being equipped with HOB close range missiles
What's HOB? (Most) Typhoons will be equipped with Iris-T, the F/A-22 with AIM9-X (which are comparatively inferior).
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11084 posts, RR: 91 Reply 8, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 24578 times:
Thrust to weight advantages (1,27 for F-22 vs. 1,18 for Typhoon)
There is an armament issue as well. The F/A-22 has a 20mm Vulcan gatling type weapon that fires at a higher rate, giving the probability of and number of rounds on target ratio advantage to the Raptor. The final throw weight of the rounds that hit the opponent is usually in the advantage column of the Vulcan as well. BTW... The British have announced that they want to take the guns off the Typhoon, and even if they don't, they won't train on them, which is a mistake, as the 27mm Mauser is one of the finest aerial weapons out there.
Finally, thrust vectoring gives the F/A-22 the distinct advantage. The F/A-22 can outmaneuver any other production fighter out there right now, including the SU's, which slouch not. The ability to turn and juke better than your opponent makes it a race between two different classes of aircraft. The future users of the Eurofighter are looking to replace large 2nd and 3rd generation aircraft in the multi-role category. The Typhoon is definitely superior to the F-4's, F.3's. F-104's, and even the F-16's in the current European inventory of air-air fighters which it will be replacing. There are also reports of Typhoon pilots getting the jump of F-15 Eagles in UK training areas. It should outclass any other fighter designed and put into service 30 or more years prior to it.
It won't win against the first 5th generation fighter to be put into service, unless there is a serious pilot or tactical advantage influenced by some outside issue or overwhelming numbers. It probably won't ever be in a position to do so either, but you never know. We have had standoffs with F-14's versus F-14's before that we were'nt expecting.
This opinion of the results of studied is backed by a DERA study (prior to the splitup to Qinetiq and DSTL) that gives odds of fighter-on-fighter outcomes with a series of fighters matched against an SU-35 type. The Typhoon was given a 4.5 to 1 advantage while the F/A-22 has a 10.1 to 1 advantage. This shows that the F/A-22 has the clear advantage.
one source (others available offline) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_2000s_fighter_aircraft
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 44 Reply 9, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 24555 times:
F-22 Vs typhoon war
Well, not if someone sells the Chinese some, though I don't think that is particularly likely given you would have to get approval from multiple European governments for a typhoon sale, and not all of them would agree.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
VSIVARIES From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 108 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 24455 times:
NoUFO
The discussion about the similarities between the Rafle and the Typhoon/Eurofighter is a valid one, but I am simply saying not here. If you want to talk about that then start another post.
These things get too complicated if you ask too many questions at once.
As things are looking at present, it looks like the general consensus is that the F/A22 has the Typhoon/Eurofighter in a corner.
Finally, this is a hypothetical situation, remember everyone.
But all of your views are interesting all the same.
My own view is.. "I wonder if the F/A22 can slow down as fast and be as stable as the Typhoon at 100 Knots", extremely useful in a dogfight, or is the F/A22 too bulky and cumbersome?
B/R
Richard
For every action there is always an unequal but mostly similar reaction.
Arniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1083 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (4 years 12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 24342 times:
Finally, thrust vectoring gives the F/A-22 the distinct advantage. The F/A-22 can outmaneuver any other production fighter out there right now, including the SU's, which slouch not. The ability to turn and juke better than your opponent makes it a race between two different classes of aircraft.
Aren't the tranche3 Typhoon production series supposed to get the 3D-nozzles (made by Alenia or some other Spanish company), the AMSAR radar some stronger engines and the Meteor BVR-missile?
I think I read it somewhere in an old AFM article.
If these things are installed I wonder what the outcome would be?
But the way things usually go over here it would probably take 10-20 years and by then the budget will be cut even further so purchases would be unlikely.
As things are now I think that the F22 has the edge in almost all aspects in air to air combat but I have a feeling that the possibility for upgrading the F22 frame and weapons systems are much more limited than the Typhoon because of the stealth characteristics on the F22.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11084 posts, RR: 91 Reply 15, posted (4 years 12 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 24298 times:
The Typhoon is scheduled to get thrust vectoring, but that all depends on the budget processes of the involved nations, same goes for the Meteor.
The F/A-22 is designed to be upgraded electronically throughout its life, and the other area for improvement will be the engines, which currently give it the best acceleration of any fighter yet.
Bsergonomics From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 462 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 24227 times:
Firstly, Alenia Aeronautica is an Italian company. The Spanish "Eurofighter Partner Company " (EPC) is EADS-CASA.
Secondly, Tranche 3 of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme is still a long way off, but it's still closer than a multi-role F(A)-22. Having seen 'battles' between the Tornado F-3 and USAF, if Europe decided that the US had had independence for 300 years too long (JOKE!) and decided that they'd have it as a colony again (ANOTHER JOKE!), I'd give the F-22 at least 8-10 years before it became a useful addition to the US's inventory. On the other hand, the Eurofighter Typhoon only needs another 1-2 years before it could be out there doing nasties to the nasty people (except for the Alaskan Defence Force, of course. Those guys seem to have their heads screwed on and I'm not even sure that the Polish would be so brave as to go up against them...).
On a semi-serious note, thrust vectoring is the key when it comes to dog-fighting. When I worked on the Harrier, the experiments into VIFFing (Vectoring In Forward Flight) were well advanced and, in the hands of a skilled pilot, that aircraft could do things that would make you wet yourself, irrespective of whether you were friend or foe. If you can do that using the FMS instead of manually... you're onto a winner!
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11084 posts, RR: 91 Reply 18, posted (4 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 24179 times:
As mentioned above there have been encounters between Typhoons and F-15's and anecdotal reporting in Air International and Flight indicates that Typhoon pilots got the jump on the Eagle drivers fairly easily. Now we didn't hear the USAF side of the encounter, but we can assume that the Typhoon is at least the equal of, and almost definite superior to the F-15. The F/A-22 is a different story altogether.
Oh, and the F/A-22 is entering squadron service as we speak. The Langley wing has already begun accepting aircraft, and the Tyndall squadron for weapons and tactics development has been a going concern for a while and the RAF won't be standing up a squadron for another year and a half at the earliest.
Wiggidy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 113 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 24093 times:
I think a few people are confused about the F-22. First thing is BVR combat. In order for the raptor to engage and enemy beyond visual range there has to be TWO raptors engaged. One is the point man, he flies without any radar in order to keep the ability of stealth. The second raptor lags behind and paints the enemy from a distance beyond the enemies range, he is most deffinately NOT invisible, radar destroys any stealth ability. Through communication between the squadron, the point man uses the lag mans radar information and launches the weapon while the enemy doesnt even know he's there.
Another huge difference between the two aircraft is payload. The typhoon has a remarkably huge payload, larger than the f-16 and strike eagle if Im not mistaking. This gives the typhoon a tremendous multi-role capability, something the F-22 is not designed for.
You have to take these things into consideration when comparing them. As to a straight up dogfight (assuming same weapons load) Id expect to see the typhoon return home, not the raptor. This is mainly because of training and mission the aircraft is designed for, RAF pilots are trained to take the aircraft to the edge and are more adept to dogfighting than a pilot trained in a raptor would be. Raptor pilots are trained to expoit their stealth, not to gun another aircraft out of the sky.
-Wes
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 15 Reply 20, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 24083 times:
Quoting Wiggidy (reply 19): I think a few people are confused about the F-22. First thing is BVR combat. In order for the raptor to engage and enemy beyond visual range there has to be TWO raptors engaged. One is the point man, he flies without any radar in order to keep the ability of stealth. The second raptor lags behind and paints the enemy from a distance beyond the enemies range, he is most deffinately NOT invisible, radar destroys any stealth ability. Through communication between the squadron, the point man uses the lag mans radar information and launches the weapon while the enemy doesnt even know he's there.
Well the F-22's radar, the APG-77, is remarkably harder to detect than conventional radars. It can most certainly be used by even a single Raptor with a high degree of success in BVR against pretty much anything in the sky today. This is one of the reasons for the Raptor being a truly stealth fighter, it is hard to detect in a variety of spectrums, not just radar signature.
What I'm wondering though, is how exactly acquisition by an AIM-9X takes place on the Raptor. ie. how can the missile lock on a target if it (and its seeker) are hidden inside bays within the airframe. Do the launch rails extend into the airstream when the aircraft goes into dogfight mode waiting to be pointed at targets by the radar/HMS, or is there a time lag built in compared to 'normal' fighters?
Arniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1083 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (4 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 24082 times:
Another huge difference between the two aircraft is payload. The typhoon has a remarkably huge payload, larger than the f-16 and strike eagle if Im not mistaking. This gives the typhoon a tremendous multi-role capability, something the F-22 is not designed for.
The Typhoon has probably indeed a bigger weaponsload than a F22 (info not available for the F22) but it most definitely doesn't have a bigger payload than a F15 (not C and D and certainly not E) and only has a comparable payload with the F16 but not substantially more.
This was one of the reasons why the French decided to part from the project an go solo with the Rafale.
The Rafale is much more of a multirole platform and has much more payload capacity than a Typhoon.
The typhoon is ,similar with the F22, mainly designed for air supremacy, only because the cold war era ended did they decide to give it a bigger multirole capacity.
You have to take these things into consideration when comparing them. As to a straight up dogfight (assuming same weapons load) Id expect to see the typhoon return home, not the raptor. This is mainly because of training and mission the aircraft is designed for, RAF pilots are trained to take the aircraft to the edge and are more adept to dogfighting than a pilot trained in a raptor would be. Raptor pilots are trained to expoit their stealth, not to gun another aircraft out of the sky.
This is a bit of a wild assumption if you ask me.
I somehow don't believe for a second that the USAF wouldn't train their pilots in advanced air combat flying (incl. dogfight) because they believe it would never happen.
Kind of a big gamble to take with a 257million$ piece of equipment.
Also, the F22 possesses some serious dogfight ability's even bigger than the British Typhoon as they won't carry the DEFA 30mm cannons (a big mistake if you ask me).
BVR is in many area's in the world not really an issue and neither is stealth ,a non stealth fighter low-flying in a mountainous terrain can sneak up on the most advanced stealth fighter and engage a dogfight.
PS : A question, I read somewhere in a science journal a couple of years ago that stealth doesn't work for all types of radar.
Some radar systems (large ones) are heaving no problem in seeing all stealth planes because they work on a different frequency than airplane based radar systems.
Any truth in this, yes or no?
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 15 Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 24011 times:
Quoting Arniepie (reply 21): I somehow don't believe for a second that the USAF wouldn't train their pilots in advanced air combat flying (incl. dogfight) because they believe it would never happen.
Oh, they'll train all right, but how much and how well? What kind of attitude will be instilled in the new generation of American fighter pilots? I think the latter is the real key question here, more so than which aircraft has thrust vectoring. JMHO.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11084 posts, RR: 91 Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23947 times:
Since the USAF and the USN pretty much invented modern jet fighter DACT and "Top Gun" type schools where everyone else comes to train, I don't really think that anyone is going to have a serious advantage over them in this.
Anyone that doesn't think that USAF pilots are going to be aggressive enough obviously knows el squato about US mentality.
I think that it is kind of a moot point, however, since the US and UK have not fought each other since 1814 (where we did kick that ass ) and are now the closest of civil, economic, political and military allies.
[Edited 2005-02-16 15:35:35]
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
25 LY744: ...And that right there is the problem. LY744.
26 Strudders: First Point If a Typhoon was close enough to a F22 to dog fight then the F22 has failed. Second Being impartial (ex RAF) the US airmen have a massive
28 Venus6971: Sorry for my last post must of fat thumbed it. Therefore if 2 skilled US airmen one in a F22 one in a Typhoon went head to head, who knows and of cour
29 Racko: Dogfighting is completely different from the usual BVR combat. The German Mig-29 for example were way inferior than most modern NATO fighters, yet whe
30 ContinentalFan: Well to be fair, the Brits did manage to sack DC and burn down the White House. To me it seemed like they fought to a draw, then the Brits got tired
31 DL021: Yeah, but we stopped them at Fort McHenry and fought to the point where Mr. Key wrote our national anthem as we sent the British home, and then Col Ja
32 Bsergonomics: Sorry for the lack of clarity in my earlier post. The comment was related tactics rather than aircraft. For the record, the Tornado F-3s were up again
33 LY744: Another thing to consider is the all-aspect capability of modern short-range AAMs, which means that both the F-22 and the Eurofighter have a damn good
34 Bsergonomics: Before reading this, please note that I have never worked on the F-22 programme; I have never even seen one in the flesh. All the OPINIONS expressed i
35 Checksixx: Whoever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about. If I have to explain how that doesn't even sound right to begin with, I can. Yes, we d
36 RayChuang: You know, I haven't heard a thing about the thrust vectoring nozzles for the Typhoon that the Spanish AF wants for the plane. If they can put in vecto
37 SnowJ: I think they're all a waste of time and money...period! I say bring back the Messerschmitts, the Mustangs, the Spitfires and the Zeros! (knowing this
38 Citjet: Hehehehe, our armed forces are getting so advanced, that the future will probobly involve the engineers designing our weapons to roll up their sleeves
39 Cloudy: Checksix said: ----- Quoting ContinentalFan (Reply 30): Well to be fair, the Brits did manage to sack DC and burn down the White House. To me it seeme
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