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IAI Kfir  
User currently offlineRampRat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1528 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5812 times:

What is the difference between the Kfir and the Mirage? Why did Isreal build there own, when they were flying Mirages. I think Isreal still flies about 40 Kfir's still.


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58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5739 times:



You mean one of these? This Kfir is owned by ATAC, a private company that does electronic aggressor work for the US Navy...they come into our airport quite frequently, neat little jets. Everyone thinks they're Mirages at first!

Unfortunately they can't really turn for shit, but they're neat lookin!

DeltaGuy

[Edited 2005-02-28 00:49:09]

User currently offlineDuce50boom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

From what I can remember Israel ordered the Mirage V but then the frogs canceled the order when they realized that the arabs had the oil. Israel still liked the V so they had the Mossad steal the blueprints and stuck the GE79 motor in it (quite a feat of engineering to make it fit) and threw in some homegrown avionics. I think those are the main differences. Don't know about the mirage V, but I heard if a kfir isn't leaking fuel it's tanks are empty. Anyone in the know about this?

DeltaGuy wrote;

Unfortunately they can't really turn for shit, but they're neat lookin!

Especially not when Doug Masters and Chappy decided "we're not gonna take it". The kfir can't hold a candle when Dougs' got his rythym going  Big grin


User currently offlineGhostbase From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 354 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

*Nice* photo DeltaGuy, thanks.

The first generation Mirage deltas were very hot birds in the 60's however, as you rightly observe, they were so draggy in any sort of turn, fortunately the opposition was likely to be the MiG-21 which had similar problems. IIRC the USMC operated some Kfirs as the F-21 Lion for a couple of years in the early 80's out of Yuma.

As a nine year old child in 1967 I remember the Israeli Mirage III absolutely beating the hell out of several Arab air forces in high speed slashing attacks, probably a lot like the F-104 was designed to operate back then. The last major operators of the first generation Mirage were the Belgians with the Mirage V and the Swiss with the Mirage IIIS and the IIIRS which survived until just a couple of years ago.

Had the Cold War turned hot in the early 80's as it came so close to doing I wonder how these first generation Mirage deltas would have fared. I think they would have done quite well but that is a personal opinion, nothing more.

'Ghostbase'



"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5665 times:

You are correct Ghost, Kfirs were indeed used by the USMC or USN for aggressor training and designated F-21.


Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5640 times:

Thanks Michael...I took that shot on Monday, they had one there that was waiting to go do an exercise with the Kennedy....they'll have 6 of them coming mid march Big grin I'll make sure to get some pics, the ATAC pilots are pretty nice guys.

Quoting Duce50boom (reply 2):
Don't know about the mirage V, but I heard if a kfir isn't leaking fuel it's tanks are empty. Anyone in the know about this?


No kidding...I fuel these beasts whenever they come into Cecil...not only do they lack a single-point fueling system, but they take fuel in SIX different places! (2 wing drop tanks, one huge two-tanked belly tank, and two central tanks you have to climb up on the wing for). The jet has almost 0 internal fuel capacity, so there's always drop tanks. Whenever we've made the mistake of letting their groundcrews do it, they'll routinely spill 5-10 gallons on the ramp. I've come out to the jet, checked one of the fuel tanks, and fuel will come spilling out of the cap on the other end of the tank! Plus, when they land, they spew about 3 gallons onto the ramp, just part of their shutdown thing I guess...better have the bucket handy. I'm sure you see the buckets by them in these two photos...that's precisely why.

Alot of the parts on that jet are still in Hebrew (whatever they write in over there lol)...interesting to see.

My uncle was actually rather influential in getting the F-21's to come over here..he was program director for the AMRAAM missle for quite some time, and wanted them here for that aggressor work..not totally sure why, but I'm sure a couple of beers and he'll tell me the whole story  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5595 times:

The Denel Cheetah (built in South Africa) was a local variant of the Kfir built onto existing SAAF Mirage III frames, with the same engine as the Mirage III (I think), but with updated radar.


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User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

Quoting Duce50boom (reply 2):
From what I can remember Israel ordered the Mirage V but then the frogs canceled the order when they realized that the arabs had the oil. Israel still liked the V so they had the Mossad steal the blueprints and stuck the GE79 motor in it (quite a feat of engineering to make it fit) and threw in some homegrown avionics.


No, you're thinking about the IAI Nesher. That was an exact copy of the Mirage V, 50 of which were ordered but never delivered. The blueprints were obtained with the silent consent of the French government and Dassault's co-operation. All 50 were built in Israel by IAI, equipped with the French Atar 9 engines (again, identical to the Mirage V).

The Kfir, which was progressively modified and improved by the IAI throughout its various versions, went into production sometime in late 1973 or early 1974. It was equipped with the GE J79 engine, and, IIRC, a Martin Baker ejection seat. The original Kfir testbed was a converted Mirage/Nesher, the rest (200-300 or so) were new builts. Export customers include Sri Lanka and Columbia (as well as another South American nation whose name escapes me at the moment, but they did use the Kfir operationally, shooting down some enemy [Peruvian?] aircraft). Due to the timing of the Kfir's introduction into large scale service with the IDF/AF (coinciding with the arrival of the first F-15s followed 4 years later by the first batch of F-16s), the Kfir was used mostly for mud-moving and never really got to be a front line fighter. The only time an IDF/AF Kfir got to score a kill was in 1979 and even then it was in an ambush alongside a bunch of Eagles (the kill is shared with an Eagle driver). One Kfir was lost to AAA in Lebanon in 1983, pilot (squadron CO) captured by friendly Lebanese forces and returned to Israel the same day.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5580 times:

but they take fuel in SIX different places! (2 wing drop tanks, one huge two-tanked belly tank, and two central tanks you have to climb up on the wing for). The jet has almost 0 internal fuel capacity,

I will second that, pain in the butt to service plus when you have depressurize the fuel system to pull down them levers on the belly. With them dumping fuel on shut down, hey it's got a J-79 in it what do you want. Hopefully its maintenance troops is there with extra drag chutes. We had to take care of one on our own with help from the pilots when there Crew Chief got stopped by TSA in San Diego trying to check drag chutes through and somebody thought they were a bomb.



I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1608 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5583 times:
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The Israelis first bought 75 Mirage IIICJs (including two CRJs and three BJs). Then, they ordered 50 Mirage VJs. The French embargoed the order after the Israeli attack on the Beirut airport in 1968.

The first IAI Nesher was actually a French built Mirage V - I've seen the data plate and its clearly marked as "built in France". IAI assembled 50 Neshers and 10 2-seat Neshers. Where the parts came from, who knows? A lot of these aircraft were later sold to Argentina as "Daggers". Also, the surviving Mirage IIICJs also ended up in Argentina.

Needing more aircraft, the Israelis then fitted the GE J79 (from the F-4E) to the Nesher airframe to create the Kfir. 175 were built, including 10 2-seaters. Some ended up in South Africa as Cheetahs.

For more info, see: http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/IAFinventory.html


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5570 times:

JGPH1A

I think that the Cheetah used the Atar 9K-50, like the Mir F1.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

I believe there was a Swiss engineer Alfred Frauenknecht stole the blueprints of the Mirage he feld it was his duty to help the Israel.

I don´t know if the following text is objective, the title of the piece suggests otherwise.


Are all who risk their lives for the State of Israel to be treated with the same disdain and disposability with which Israel treated Alfred Frauenknecht? In the late 1960's, Frauenknecht, a Jewish Swiss engineer, stole the blueprints and the specifications for the precise machine tools used in the French-Swiss Mirage Jet Fighter Plane, and gave them to Israel. The Jewish State used the blueprints to build the Kfir fighter plane. When Frauenknecht was caught, Israel disowned him and abandoned him to his fate. The Swiss Judge who sentenced Frauenknecht in 1971 was so appalled by the way that Israel had treated him, that he was moved to reduce Frauenknecht's sentence as a gesture of consolation.

The Government of Israel did not invite Frauenknecht to the grand unveiling of the Kfir aircraft, which took place after his release from prison. Some Israeli pilots took pity on Frauenknecht, who was left destitute after his incarceration. They chipped in to send him a plane ticket to attend the event, which they knew would never have taken place, were it not for him. Frauenknecht attended but was not allowed to view the unveiling of the plane from the VIP grandstand. He had to stand with the common folk on the ground. When top Israel officials discovered that Frauenknecht was in attendance, he was immediately asked to leave. Security staff quickly and quietly escorted him out.

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2005/010905.htm

From what I undrstand the J79 wasn´t as good for the aircraft as the original Atar´s.


User currently offlineGhostbase From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 354 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

Quoting LY744 (reply 7):
as well as another South American nation whose name escapes me at the moment, but they did use the Kfir operationally, shooting down some enemy [Peruvian?] aircraft


It was Ecuador which operated one squadron of Kfir C2s. They had a territorial dispute with Peru in 1995 and had three confirmed aerial kills but my source does not elaborate on the what they killed or how they did it.

The same source suggests that some of the original MIIICJs were also re-engined with the J-79 and named the Barak (Lightning) but this has never been confirmed.

A fascinating aircraft!



"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

The South Africans where looking at putting the engine from the Mig-29 into their Cheetahs. I don't know how far along they got with that idea.




Quoting Keesje (reply 11):
From what I undrstand the J79 wasn´t as good for the aircraft as the original Atar´s.


It is completely inconcivable to me that any French engine could be better then an American one.

Ok. Nationalistic rant over  Laugh out loud

Actually the original engine for the Mirages was supposed to be the Canadian Iroqouis from the CF-105 Arrow, but was cancelled along with that aircraft in one of the dumbest moves ever by the Canadian Government. I think that an order for something like 100+ plants had allready been signed.

The French suddenly without an engine then had to design their legendary ATAR engine.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineGhostbase From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 354 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

Quoting L-188 (reply 13):
It is completely inconcivable to me that any French engine could be better then an American one.


LOL! You certainly know how to make friends and influence people!

I have watched more than a few French Mirage 2000Cs display at airshows and their SNECMA M53-P2 powerplants are recognisedly much more 'raw' in their output in full burner than the current F-15/F-16/F-18 models, definitely a difference. The French aerospace industry still produces very impressive aircraft and powerplants.



"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

Quoting AeroWeanie (reply 9):


After looking over that webpage. I can't believe all the IAF aircraft that were shot down from SAMs or enemy aircraft. I always thought the IAF was top-notch, even back then. Wow.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5520 times:

Hey I have to stick up for the home team  Big thumbs up


Quoting Ghostbase (reply 14):
have watched more than a few French Mirage 2000Cs display at airshows and their SNECMA M53-P2 powerplants are recognisedly much more 'raw' in their output in full burner than the current F-15/F-16/F-18 models, definitely a difference. The French aerospace industry still produces very impressive aircraft and powerplants.


The difference there being is that you need to figure the M53 had about 10 years of learning curve to the F100 or the F110. I would argue that if they aren't different generations of engines, then they are at least bookends, the American motors coming earlier and the French ones later. I would hope the laters design would learn from others work Big grin


Hey remember this line from "Chappie", "You know those SAM sites have French Radar? Means you can fool em' with foil"



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDuce50boom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5506 times:

My bad, thanks LY744 and Aeroweanie for setting me straight on that.

L-188 I loved that quote! Retarded on so many levels....My fav is near the end, something along the lines of: "Colonel, Would you mind if we flew the missing man formation for Chappie?"...... Lead comes back with "We're already set up for it, and we'd be honored SIR if you'd scoot in there and take the lead". Give me a f**king break! As if the movie wasn't dumb enough.....the original flight lead might as well have saluted as Doug flew past him, it wouldn't have made the movie any more lame. Now if he'd told that kid to shut up and color; that he's lucky they didn't fire an AIM-9 up his tailpipe.....that would be MUCH more realistic.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5499 times:

So tell us Duce.....Will a Maverick fire while still on the ground?

For those who think I am a little too critical of the fellows at Dassault. I would point out that in my aircraft of the Alaska Defense Forces postings, I have them flying the Mirage also.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

Quoting Ghostbase (reply 12):
The same source suggests that some of the original MIIICJs were also re-engined with the J-79 and named the Barak (Lightning) but this has never been confirmed.


That never happened. In the mid 70's the Israelis did re-engine their remaining IIICJ's with the Atar 9C instead of the original Atar 9A (you can tell by the new style exhaust nozzles on the C as opposed to the clam shell design on the A).


Quoting Ramprat74 (reply 15):
After looking over that webpage. I can't believe all the IAF aircraft that were shot down from SAMs or enemy aircraft. I always thought the IAF was top-notch, even back then. Wow.


Odd statement. But anyhoo, you would notice that most of those losses took place in a certain two and a half week period in October of 1973... What you can't tell from the list, and is just as important, is that the IDF/AF suffered no losses in June of 1982. That however is the subject of a whole different thread.


Quoting L-188 (reply 13):
It is completely inconcivable to me that any French engine could be better then an American one


Without getting too carried away it is worth noting that the early Atar 9s were notoriously unreliable (probably one of the reasons the Israelis bothered re-engining their ageing Mirage III fleet with -9Cs even though the aircraft were less than a decade away from retirement).


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineDuce50boom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

L-188 wrote:

So tell us Duce.....Will a Maverick fire while still on the ground?

"There's only one way to find out"

It happened on the movie, so I'm sure it can happen in real life! The refueling too, loved that one--a kid who for the most part has only flown simulators takes his bird under a 135 a couple times and no one is the wiser. Riiiiight. Maybe he can teach the guys going through pipeline at Luke how to do it so smoothly.

For real though, not sure, I don't know if just putting the master arm to ARM will let you fire while there's still weight on the landing gear. Perhaps LY744 is in the know?


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

Quoting LY744 (reply 19):
Without getting too carried away it is worth noting that the early Atar 9s were notoriously unreliable (probably one of the reasons the Israelis bothered re-engining their ageing Mirage III fleet with -9Cs even though the aircraft were less than a decade away from retirement).


Well we can blame former PM Diffenbaker for that now can't we  Pissed

What other idiot would destroy an advance technology program like an airplane engine, that could prove to be an major national industry....AND HAS ORDERS!!!



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

Quoting Duce50boom (reply 20):
Maybe he can teach the guys going through pipeline at Luke how to do it so smoothly.


Oh I am sure that he is now an instructor in those USAF A-4 Skyhawks that where in the background of that one hanger scene....you know the one where they light off the string of black-cats to get access to the computer to schedual a training flight?



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Quoting LY744 (reply 19):
But anyhoo, you would notice that most of those losses took place in a certain two and a half week period in October of 1973...


Wasn't that the infamous "Electric Summer" due to all the ECM from Israeli and Egyption combat operations screwing up everybody's radio and TV reception in Europe?


Also I think the introduction of the SA-6 and ZSU-23-4 proved to be a particularly nasty surprise.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDuce50boom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5484 times:

Oh yeah I remember that one now. I didn't realize it was an A-4 though. I gotta look out for that next time. I know it's not very suspicious when someone who looks 15 years old walks into a hangar wearing dress blues and holding fireworks in his hands.

It could've been worse though: He could've taken out his aggression by taking his shirt off (while wearing his dad's dog tags) and, along with Chappie, challenging those dastardly Libyan "BASTARDS!!!!!" to a game of sand volleyball. Glad hollywood would never stoop that low. Thankfully


25 Garnetpalmetto : Oh I am sure that he is now an instructor in those USAF A-4 Skyhawks that where in the background of that one hanger scene... Sorta hard to do that wh
26 Duce50boom : Garnet, I think I can put your questions to rest. Being in the AF I'm privy to these sort of things..... The "F-4" you speak of was nothing less than
27 Post contains images LY744 : ZSU-23-4: Yes, somewhat. SA-6: only in a psychological sense, in reality it scored few kills on both the Syrian and Egyptian fronts. The older SA-3 w
28 Garnetpalmetto : LOL @ Duce...thanks for giving me a laugh tonight man!
29 Duce50boom : No worries dude. I help out where I can
30 AeroWeanie : Keesje: Alfred Frauenknecht only sold Atar drawings to the Israelis. I am pretty sure that the drawings, jigs and probably parts for the Neshers came
31 Citjet : How about the gorgeous Lavi that the Israeli's were building off of the F-16? The Kfir is just another of the most beautifull machines that the French
32 L-188 : I think they sold the plans of that to the Chinese and they are going to make it as the J-12 or something.
33 Post contains images AeroWeanie : L-188: Lavi J-10
34 Boeing4ever : I think they sold the plans of that to the Chinese and they are going to make it as the J-12 or something. I'm a little disturbed by this. Israel sell
35 Post contains images LY744 : So fighter jets in general are considered "U.S. technology" now? FYI, what the Lavi and the F-16 have in common is that they both have one engine wit
36 L-188 : The J-10, Thanks for the photos Aeroweanie. BTW:Great handle. Is it just me or is that J-10 hanging Mavericks? LY744, my understanding is that the Isr
37 AeroWeanie : I didn't look carefully at the picture before - you're right, they sure do look like Mavericks!
38 Boeing4ever : So fighter jets in general are considered "U.S. technology" now? Like L-188 said, the Lavi borrowed from the F-16. Look at it's tail and nose shape. W
39 LY744 : Um, how about you look at the fact that it has a delta wing and canards? Just like that other Israeli fighter project that I mentioned had. You could
40 Post contains links and images Boeing4ever : Umm, the F-15 and MiG 25 share some genaric similarities, but few would call them "borrowed" from each other. Plus, it's known that the US spent a lo
41 Post contains links and images LY744 : Wow, and the F-16 and the Lavi go beyond that? You know what, forget it, I'll just christen this new smiley instead: I know I'll regret this, but her
42 CURLYHEADBOY : There is also that Taiwanese HHAI Ching-Kuo (a.k.a. IDF) very similar to an F-16, are they operational...?
43 L-188 : I wouldn't call that similar. The Ching-Kuo is a twin motor and each has it's own intake. From the top it does look simular but considering the aerody
44 Boeing4ever : Save the smiley LY, you'll need your eyesight since you clearly seem to think Israel developed its own machine with the Lavi. Interesting article you
45 Post contains images CURLYHEADBOY : Well, it still looks similar to me, despite the two engines... Now IIRC, Taiwan wanted the F-16 but the US refused to sell them, so they went for the
46 L-188 : There is a great quote that is attributed to some Soviet designer who claimed that "Form follows function" There is a ring of truth to that.
47 LY744 : The first things my eyes see are the delta wing/canards, the different landing gear, the different vertical stab, different hardpoint configuration,
48 Post contains links and images Eksath : Here is the IAI KFir in Sri Lanka Air Force service. THese machines have been used in Air to Ground operations against Tamil LTTE terrorists. A few ye
49 LY744 : Cool picture Eksath, but those are Floggers. LY744.
50 L-188 : Yup Floggers. However the photo is slightly mislabled. The lead is a Mig-23BN trainer, the tail is a MIg-27
51 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I think you need to take a closer look at an F-16.... No doubt in my mind that during the cold war we ripped off each other's designs. Israel isn't o
52 Eksath : Aw...I must have been brain dead. My bad! ...I will try and get the real thing on soon.
53 Post contains images Keesje : Yes the mig15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 30, 35 and all Sukhoi´s & Tupolev´s closely resemble Western designs. The Russian weren´t able to design themse
54 LMP737 : Do you mean the Canadian flag LY744 has in his window?
55 Boeing4ever : Keesje, read LY's statement a second time...you clearly didn't understand his attempted point. I got it, and I'm opposing him! B4e-Forever New Frontie
56 Citjet : Well, this discussion hasnt been active in quite a while, but.....to correct some, I'll go further to say that the MIG-25 was designed around the conc
57 L-188 : Got a source on that? My understanding was the -25 was basicly designed around those two engines, much like the A-10 was designed around that big gun
58 Citjet : I'd have to buy the book again, but I clearly remember the Vigi having a big influence on the design developement of the Mig-25. Now, I'm not saying t
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IAI Kfir posted Sun Feb 27 2005 23:09:01 by RampRat74

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