Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 27186 times:
So it appears the USS America, one of the oil-fired Kitty Hawk class aircraft carriers will be used for target practice so the Navy can learn how much punishment a supercarrier can take. Of note, it will be the largest warship and aircraft carrier ever sunk, eclipsing both Yamato-class battleships sunk which includes the Shinano (completed as a carrier).
Also, the Oriskany will become an artificial reef.
All of this of course will be met with some resistance from the former crew of the America.
Shame the media won't be allowed to see it. I personally am curious myself as to how much of a beating she'll take. I'm sure the Navy will eventually declassify what footage they collect...but it'll be awhile.
Ghostbase From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 354 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 27030 times:
Just dredging the depths of my memory but wasn't a carrier used as a target in one of the Bikini Atoll H-Bomb tests? Was one of the surplus WW2 carriers which had taken a battering during the war and was surplus to requirements, would not have been an Essex however might have been one of the Independence class.
Sidishus From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 27003 times:
Quoting Ghostbase (reply 1): Was one of the surplus WW2 carriers which had taken a battering during the war and was surplus to requirements, would not have been an Essex however might have been one of the Independence class.
You were right about the Independence ...(Forgot about this one)
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
AeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1601 posts, RR: 52 Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 26932 times:
Regarding the USS Independence (quoting navsource.org):
"Assigned as a target vessel for the Bikini atomic bomb tests (Operation Crossroads), she was placed within one-half mile of ground zero for the 1 July 1946 explosion. She did not sink, however, and after taking part in another explosion on the 25 July was taken to Kwajalein. The highly radioactive hulk was later taken to Pearl Harbor and San Francisco for further tests and was finally sunk in weapons tests off the coast of California 29 January 1951."
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 26803 times:
Quoting Ghostbase (reply 6): Thanks for the information. It was the USS Independence I was thinking of, had not realised that the USS Saratoga had shared the same fate. Seems a bit ungrateful given her war record
Well the USS Enterprise CV-6 didn't meet a fitting end either. Such a great war record for the Yorktown class carrier, and in the end she's scrapped as if she were a floating junk whore.
Granted, the US has sunk carriers in the past...but this is the first of the "super carriers" that'll be sent to the bottom. These tests are important, the navy says, in order to study what they may need to do for future carrier designs.
Stimpy From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 26791 times:
Well the only good thing is that the OTHER Saratoga lives on. ( CVA-60 ) Actually I can see the her and the Forrestal everday from my room here at NS Newport. A lot of history on those carriers.....just hope that they do get used as floating museum's just as some of the others.
747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3301 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 26513 times:
The USS America was an interesting carrier, she was the only U.S. aircraft carrier to use sonar, that why it's port anchor was located in the middle of her bow. The USS John F. Kennedy had the same lay out but never had sonar. The USS America never got a SLEP and I herd it was because her hull was made of thin steal to save money, for that reason she was decommion early. In Desert Storm she operate in the Persian Gulf and the RED SEA, she was the only carrier at the time to do that.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11433 posts, RR: 81 Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 26462 times:
There was also a difference in construction technique that rendered it more susceptible to structural weakening over the long term.
This useful fate for a proud ship is perfectly honorable as the data gathered will help protect the force in the future. It beats the hell out of getting dragged to a breakers yard on Baltimore or perhaps Goa.
I hope that the Navy finds a way to put another capital vessel out there with the name as soon as possible.
DeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 26299 times:
What a shame.....the USS America foundation attempted to save her for a long time, but the Navy said it would not go to donation status for reasons of the hull being so unsecure. She sure does look beat up in that harbor...the Navy sure does let em go to shit.
At least Saratoga and Forestal are hopefully going to be spared- one has a beautiful name, and one is where alot of brave men gave their lives one day.
Indy, Connie, Ranger, and (maybe too soon) Kennedy, will be interesting to see where they end up.
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 15 Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 26271 times:
Where's the Kitty Hawk? Forrestal being the oldest of the fossil-fuel supercarriers may have a pretty good chance as being as memorial. And she has indeed seen more than her fair share of tragedy. Here's the fossil-fuel carriers I know of that are still afloat.
DeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26249 times:
Wow...that's alot of supercarriers, but not alot of small decks...guess their time was gone a long time ago.
My cheap speculation about the non-museum boats.
Oriskany- will dive upon her decks one day
Forrestal- Museum in Baltimore
Staratoga- Museum in Sarasota?
Ranger- Museum in Everett
Indy- Ready reserve for some time, then who knows what.
Kitty Hawk- Serving for some time, then ready reserve
Connie- Striken, so who knows right now
America- Unforunately sinking
Kennedy- Museum, Kennedy family will see to it.
Remember, once all the fossil fuelers are gone, we'll have nothing but nukes, and the Nimitz will be around for quite awhile...so we'll have to keep 3 or so in mothballs for certain occasions. The Big E will be an interesting situation too, the first nuke flattop to be decommed.
If the talks with Japan don't work, we'll either have to pull the carrier force out of there, or keep the Kitty Hawk in good shape till then. Here in Jax, they were talking about putting Kennedy in mothballs, and when Kitty Hawk gets too old, retiring her, and bringing Kennedy back on line to take her place...sounds like freezing a ship to me!
I guess we're lucky in that nobody will really undertake the project of scrapping a Supercarrier, as the costs far outweigh the benefits- look at the Coral Sea dismantling. In hindsight, scuttling her would have been a much better ending...anything to avoid the torch.
DeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 26249 times:
Hey Stimpy (or anyone else who would know)....
In that nice aerial photo, what is that large ship all the way to the right of the frame? Is it perhaps the Glomar Explorer, the ship used in the Jenny Project? (recovered that Russian nuke sub in the Pacific)
Stimpy From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 26186 times:
Oh that? Well that happens to be a MSC ( Military Sealift Command ) supply ship of some sort. She was in port back in August-September for quite a while onloading god knows what. They have a driveable ramp in the back for what ever they want to put in the cargo hold. To the left of that , are three USCG buoy tenders which are stationed here in Newport.
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 890 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 26078 times:
When I was flying around Providence, I was tempted to do a touch and go on one of those carriers. Just turn off the transponder do a touch and go and check back in with Providence after doing a landing at Newport.
One of the carriers has its mast taken off and stored on the flight deck... too close to the angled for my comfort. I don't think I would have had the wing clearance to do it safely. But the touch and go thought lasted about 30 seconds. There are power lines at the departure end of the carrier bows that would made that touch and go impractical.
That ship all the way over on the right with the Ro-Ro ramp from the stern to the quaywall is a T-AKR operated by the Military Sealift Command. I don't know if it is one of the new Bob Hope class ships. Its mission is strategic sealift and it is used as part of the Maritime Prepositioning Force. A squadron of five T-AKRs can carry the vehicles/tanks/trucks/equipment and 30 days of supplies (ammunition / fuel / POL) for just one heavy armored brigade.
One ship is equivalent to the lift capacity of about 1,000 C-5 sorties to move the same amount of equipment. e.g. one armored brigade = 5,000 C-5 sorties.
4 brigades to a division / 3 divisions took part in Iraqi Freedom in 2003, 9 divisions took part in Desert Storm in 1991. (There are only 10 active divisions in the whole US Army today)
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
Garnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5244 posts, RR: 55 Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 26047 times:
Quoting 747400sp (reply 9): The USS America was an interesting carrier, she was the only U.S. aircraft carrier to use sonar
Not quite, 747400sp. She was the only supercarrier to mount sonar, but some of the Essex-class carriers that were modified to serve as CVSs, including Essex herself mounted SQS-23 sonars under the FRAM II SCB-144 upgrade. The carriers that underwent that upgrade were Essex, Yorktown, Intrepid, Hornet, Randolph, Wasp, Bennington, Boxer, Kearsarge, Princeton, and Valley Forge.
In a way, this will be a sad fate for the ship, but hopefully all that will be gleaned from her sinking will help the next class of supercarriers be even stronger. Interestingly enough, the USN has agreed to allow the USS America Carrier Veterans Association to place a time capsule aboard the ship before she is scuttled.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
DeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 26043 times:
I too read that on the USS America Association pages...it has to be limited to paper items only, but at least they're letting them do that!!! They already had a final farewell for a few hundred crewmembers that showed up, gave em one last look at their boat. Apparently they weren't allowed to go below decks (like the O-3 level), as CIC and other areas still contain quite a bit of classified equipment...interesting that some of that stuff is still aboard! How much will be stripped off the ship before sending her out? I'd like to think they'd save as much as they could, things that wouldn't necessarily contribute to the experiment (anchors, Captain's chair, signs, furnature, Ready Room stuff, etc), or strip more gear for other boats still serving. Also that classified gear, you wouldn't want all that sitting in the open Atlantic would you?
Thinking about going to Pensacola for spring break (in addition to the legendary Panama City D) to see the NMNA, and the USS Oriskany moored at the pier, before she makes her last cruise as well.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 26039 times:
Quoting Boeing4ever (reply 7): Well the USS Enterprise CV-6 didn't meet a fitting end either. Such a great war record for the Yorktown class carrier, and in the end she's scrapped as if she were a floating junk whore.
I personally think that one of the worst things that the Navy ever did was send the Enterprise (CV) to the breakers after WWII. There was a ship that should have been preserved.
I under stand that 5 portholes from the earlier ship where saved and installed on the Enterprise CVN when she was built.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Stimpy From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 25978 times:
Wow, those are some awesome historical pics! Where do you get these at? I wouldn't mind looking through those pics to back when. God it's amazing how much carrier aviation has changed within the past 50 years. Back when I was deployed on board Connie, as old as she was, she still had a lot of interesting experiences to give on her last deployment. We once had to accomadate 50+ knots of wind on the flight deck in order for a Hornet, with it's failed leading edge flap on one wing , to land safely without the pilot ejecting.
25 SATL382G: L-188 -- Interesting pics. The "Big E" compares favorably with the carrier on the other side of the pier. I didn't think she was that big... Wasn't A
26 Garnetpalmetto: To compare: Yorktown-class Length: 809.5' Beam: 83.25' Forrestal-class (specifically USS Independence) Length: 1,046' Beam: 130'
27 L-188: http://www.history.navy.mil This is the US Navy Historical center. There is another great site, I can't remember the name at the moment that I used t
28 LMP737: Even though these tests will give the Navy an idea the amount of punishment a carrier can take it will not give them a completely accurate picture. Re
29 DeltaGuy: LMP hit it on the head....plus, they keep saying the America has a very weak hull with much cheaper steel....unlike today's Nimitz Class, Newport News
30 L-188: I wouldn't expect that. I would expect the ship to be set up at general quarters, hatches sealed and then a shot put in. If it still floats, it would
31 LMP737: L188: One would expect the Navy to have the ship at full watertight integrity with all hatched and dogged down. It will be interesting to see how much
32 DeltaGuy: Will also be interesting to see some unclassified photos, of her being towed out to sea, the stern of the ship going down, etc etc...it may be too dee
33 Ghostbase: Am going to be careful how I say this, so here goes... I have seen *speculation* on a UK based message board that the US Navy has made a deal with the
34 AeroWeanie: Its no secret that the US Navy has been buying and firing SS-N-22 Sunburns as targets. They are designated as Boeing/Zvezda-Strela MA-31s. [url=http:/
35 L-188: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ma-31.html Clickable link for you there. Actually I am going to have to remember that website when peopl
36 DL021: Actually the missiles we have been using are the AS.17 Krypton, originally designed to be a Patriot radar killer and used as an air.surface weapon. Th
37 Woodreau: Getting back to the subject of the sinking for damage control / survivability testing.... A carrier will not be able to shootdown a SS-N-22 Sunburn or
38 RayChuang: My guess is that the Independence, Kitty Hawk and Constellation will be kept in a condition that can bring them back into commission within six months
39 DeltaGuy: I thought the Indy and Connie were stricken? Or did I mess one of those up? DeltaGuy
40 DL021: Would the CIWS not be able to shoot it down? I know the sumbitch is moving fast, but the stream of 20mm rounds ought to take it down as long as it co
41 DeltaGuy: Would be nice to see some A-7's and A-6's gracing the cats once again...but that would also mean that my dad's generation would have to be flying thos
42 Woodreau: FWIW, CIWS cannot shoot down Sunburns nor the SS-NX-25 or SS-NX-27 missiles due to the terminal maneuvering characteristics of those missiles. The Rus
43 DL021: Woodreau....Thanks for that. I had gone to look it up in the interim and your explanation was more concise than that which I read. I am astonished tha
44 Woodreau: Unfortunately, I can't answer any of your specific questions or go any further than my explanation above without verifying who you are... But it is
45 DL021: Good answer. You know your shit. Situational awareness is important throughout the different arenas of warfare. As an infantryman I can say that the e
46 Woodreau: DL021, I didn't mean to offend you with the "first verifying who you are" remark and I apologize if you took offense to it. I got your PM but I haven'
47 DL021: No offense taken. SOme stuff is not to be discussed no matter how curious people get. SAEDA is real and the need for OPSEC is real. If it was the old
48 DeltaGuy: Thanks for the services as well, but good move...I think you'll enjoy the world up above (the one that pays lol) alot more Better than getting carpal