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Western Fighter Involved In Dogfights Last 15 Yrs  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

Not to many IMO, some incidents..

So why spend so many billions billions in developping aircraft for this (e.g. Eurofighter, F22)?

Times are changing, requirement too IMO..

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5395 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

Times are changing, requirement too IMO..

Funny you say that, Keesje. Aircraft designers were saying the same things in the late '50s and early '60s, so aircraft like the F-4 weren't designed to be dogfighters as designers and war planners expected all-missile engagements at BVR. The experiences learned in Vietnam taught us much differently. IMO, I'd rather see aircraft designed that could balance both BVR and knifefights, such as the F/A-22 and the Eurofighter.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3629 times:

I'd have thought that aircraft designed now need more than ever a knifefight capability. How many incidents occur during UN operations, Bosnia etc where visual identification of approaching aircraft is required first. If the aircraft were to be hostile then a close in weapons engagement would be required. Even with advances in Radar visual identification is still required.

I am surprised more aircraft don't have the TV cameras used on F14 and some MIG aircraft that allow you to identify targets at far greater than eyeball range.


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3578 times:

Maybe the pilots good ol Mk 1 Mod 0 has gotten stronger  Wink

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (reply 3):
Maybe the pilots good ol Mk 1 Mod 0 has gotten stronger


Just keep eating those carrots!


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3397 times:
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To answer the original question I'll have to add to what GP said.

The idea that long distance weapons are perfect is far from reality. The aircraft will need to be able to engage each other at short range once all missile ordnance has been expended. There will also continue to be a requirement for ground support, including strafing, for fighters....whether the Air Farces like it or not.

Close in combat using guns has not been very common over the last 25 or so years, but it's like insurance.....you don't need it until you really really need it.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineKukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3312 times:

I remember reading about an engagement between a British Harrier and an Argentine transport (Hercules I think it was) during the Falklands war. One of the Harrier's AIM-9s started a fire between the two engines on one wing. Its other AIM-9 failed. In the end the Harrier pilot shot down the Herc WWII style with his 30mms. A cannon-less fighter, like the Brits were proposing with their Eurofighters (is this still the plan?), would be a big mistake IMO.


Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

In the current issue of Air Forces Monthly they have an interesting snippet in their losses section. On Sept 14 2001 two Syrian MIG-29's turned towards an Israeli 707 SIGNIT aircraft flying over the Med. The two F-15's flying escort engaged the MIG's and shot them down. One with a Python and the other with a Sidewinder. Guess the days of the dogfight are not over.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3236 times:

IMO soon off-borescope angle AAM can turn 180 degrees. Experiments have been done with rearward-facing air-to-air radar, allowing the use of rear-firing semi-active radar guided missiles.

Rearward directed air to air radars such as on this SU33 and special missile versions could reduce the need for high agility.


The Helm mounted cueing devices combined with new new missiles like the russian introduced with AA11/mig29/su27 in the eighties are addopted on all new fighters.

Long range, pilot comfort, ability to carry site looking radar, act as buddy refueler, ECM aircraft, etc could become more important. Look at the F18 Growler concept, the "trance 2" of the Eurofight the RAF came up with 2 years ago, and the late decision to order a larger percentage of 2 seater Rafales.. IMO requirements are changing..


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3231 times:
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Kukkudrill

Sorry but I think that the story you read was incorrect. The British did not record shooting down a C-130 in any record I can find.

Here is a site that lists all air-air kills during the conflict.

http://www.naval-history.net/F63braircraftlost.htm

The fights between the A-4's and the Harriers are interesting, however. Real knife fights by determined and skilled fliers.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineAnt72LBA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 414 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Tuesday 1st June

[a65] - Hercules C.130E of FAA Transport Grupo 1 shot down 50 miles North of Pebble Island by Cmdr Ward RN in No.801 Sea Harrier using Sidewinder and 30mm cannon (10.45 am). Crew of seven killed.

DL021,

This was taken from the link you included so Kukkudrill's account would appear to be correct.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Not to many IMO, some incidents..

So why spend so many billions billions in developping aircraft for this (e.g. Eurofighter, F22)?

Times are changing, requirement too IMO..


One must remember that the F-22 was designed to detect hostile aircraft at long ranges while being undetected itself and then engaging those target at a standoff distance. So saying it was developed for dogfighting is not entirely accurate.

However the USAF has a long memory and they recall a time when the "experts" said the day of the dogfight was over. Then Vietnam came about and they were caught with their pants down. Therefore IMHO the Air Force is right to design the F-22 with agility in mind in case there is a dogfight. Some targets might get through or the ROE might require visual ID.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29799 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Well lets think here.

USN F-14's tangled with Lybian Su's and Migs in the 1980's.
Just about all the major USAF types played with the Iraqi's in the 1990 war. Although I note that most of the kills where with Sparrow.
Add to the fact that the Iranians where flying missions against Iraq during the 1980's too. Hard to believe there wouldn't have been some A to A.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 7):
In the current issue of Air Forces Monthly they have an interesting snippet in their losses section. On Sept 14 2001 two Syrian MIG-29's turned towards an Israeli 707 SIGNIT aircraft flying over the Med. The two F-15's flying escort engaged the MIG's and shot them down. One with a Python and the other with a Sidewinder.


That incident is far from being confirmed. Both sides deny it ever took place, and the only journalist who has reported the story can not, or will not, reveal his sources. Further more, I've seen off the record accounts of former IDF/AF personnel who were on duty in the Nothern sector command and control center that day, and saw no evidence of any unusual activity.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3138 times:
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AnT72....you are correct sir. I did not go to the next page, indeed did not see the next page. THanks.

Kukkudrill...sorry about that. I can't believe I never heard that before.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

LY744:

The Air Forces Monlthy blurb did mention that it was not confirmed. I did find it interesting that they mentioned the names of the Syrian pilots.


User currently offlineKukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3065 times:



Quoting DL021 (Reply 14):
Kukkudrill...sorry about that. I can't believe I never heard that before.

No problem!



Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

The latest US studies are also looking at long range versions of f22 and f23 fighters as is told on www.afa.org.

The F22 fighter is under discussion, the F/B22 is receiving USAF attention.



However the cockpits of these are not optimized for 10+ hour missions. The Su32 has a site by site cockpit improving communication and even has a small galley & toilet which enhances crew effectiveness in long patrol missions above crises areas.



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