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Eurofighter Takes Out 2 F-15E's In Mock Dogfight  
User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 53
Posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 17249 times:

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005

Greg


Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 17235 times:

From the article:

>>A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.

Hmm... I'm suspicious of that  Wink

Not so much that the Eurofighter won, it's the more modern airplane, but that the USAF was horribly embarrased. Wasn't it rumoured that when the USAF was playing "hush hush" (air quotes) over the F-15 loss to the IAF they were really trying to play-up the case for the F-22 superfighter?

USAF pilot infront of appropriations committee:

"Oh man... we lost again! I wasn't expecting a cutting edge fighter to beat me, man I wish we had something high-tech that won't be slimmed down to anemic numbers."


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17196 times:

FWIW, those were E's. Heavier than the C/D so, if it is as published, so what. The E, Strike Eagle, is Air to Ground.

User currently offlineKukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17181 times:

And the article says the F-15E is "widely regarded as the best fighter in the world". Talk about journalists playing it up.


Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17138 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2):
FWIW, those were E's. Heavier than the C/D so, if it is as published, so what. The E, Strike Eagle, is Air to Ground.

But the C/D versions are additionaly are at least 5-10 years older than the E-Versions ... in dog fights the EF is in any case better than a F-15. It's lighter and more agile as it can fly slower due delta wings and canards and faster due to its higher relative power. Also its lower weight and canards should give some better maneuverability. Additionally the EF pilot is by far better supported by the aircraft. He has to think less than the F-15 pilot.

In BVR combat the E-version radar should have some advanatages over that of the C/D version. But in AA-mode it's less capabale than the CAPTOR radar of the EF.

The EF was designed to be better than the F-15, it's not a miracle that it proved better at least in this particular situation.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31679 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17100 times:

Quoting USAFHummer (Thread starter):
Wasn't it rumoured that when the USAF was playing "hush hush" (air quotes) over the F-15 loss to the IAF they were really trying to play-up the case for the F-22 superfighter?

I wonder what the Score card read.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17074 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4):
In BVR combat the E-version radar should have some advanatages over that of the C/D version. But in AA-mode it's less capabale than the CAPTOR radar of the EF.

The radar on the E is for Air-Ground. The E is the leading deep interdiction platform for the USAF. It is not optimized for air to air. The E should have been at a disadvantage

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4):
But the C/D versions are additionaly are at least 5-10 years older than the E-Versions ... in dog fights the EF is in any case better than a F-15. It's lighter and more agile as it can fly slower due delta wings and canards and faster due to its higher relative power. Also its lower weight and canards should give some better maneuverability. Additionally the EF pilot is by far better supported by the aircraft. He has to think less than the F-15 pilot.

The C model would have had a slightly better thrust/weight ration than the EF. In addition, the EF isn't faster than the F-15 and the 15 should be able to go vertical and keep up with the EF without any problems. As far as thinking less, I won't touch that at all, but in close in combat, it becomse all about the pilot.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16990 times:

Sorry guys, I heard about this or an exactly similar event months ago. I think it was likely a propoganda tool yo help the British save some face over the setbacks of the EF program. The USAF apparantly had no problem doing the same thing aginst the Indian Sues so as to help get more funds for their F-22, so you can rest assure the US Air Force knows how to fight in their Eagles.

And even if this wasn't the case, there are so many variables in situations like this so until an actual fight happens, and pilots motives are not in question, I don't think any differently of the Eagle just yet.


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16834 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
The radar on the E is for Air-Ground. The E is the leading deep interdiction platform for the USAF. It is not optimized for air to air. The E should have been at a disadvantage

The E-Version is was designed as a Multi-Role fighter with an emphasis on strike missions. Its APG-70X radar has an excellent Air-to-Air mode and which is superior to the APG-63 in all aspects. Additionally it is Air-toGround capable. The only real advanatge that the (A/B)/C/D version have is weight and therewith maneuverability. But the E-Version is the better BVR-Fighter, even though that's not its primary mission.

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6):
The C model would have had a slightly better thrust/weight ration than the EF. In addition, the EF isn't faster than the F-15 and the 15 should be able to go vertical and keep up with the EF without any problems. As far as thinking less, I won't touch that at all, but in close in combat, it becomse all about the pilot.

The F-15 flies about 2,5 Mach at max which is theoretical. In practice speeds of more than Mach 1,6 will hardly be flown. The EF has a max speed of Mach 2, but can easily use the full range of speeds between extremely slow and Mach 1,8. It can also reach Mach 1,5 without afterburner (Supercruise), which the F-15 cannot. This is what I meant.

BTW: As long as we don't shoot at each other the F-15 vs EF discusion is useless and obsolete. To a great extent they even use the same weapons. A comparison with the many versions of the SU-27 is much more worhtwhile ... and much more difficult.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16822 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 8):
BTW: As long as we don't shoot at each other the F-15 vs EF discusion is useless and obsolete.

I agree - get the bugs ironed out on the EF and I'll take an entire Wing full of dual seat EuroFighters for my Air Force anyday.


User currently offlineTnsaf From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16389 times:

Congratulations Europe! A design some 20 years younger than its opponent wins in a dog fight! What was it supposed to do!

Eurofighter does everything an F-18 does only 20 years later!



700 hours and counting...
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 16380 times:

Quoting Tnsaf (Reply 10):
Congratulations Europe! A design some 20 years younger than its opponent wins in a dog fight! What was it supposed to do!

Well, they should be glad about this. I mean if it lost, they'd have some issues.

Anyone else think this is a joint "smoke up the ass" campaign by the RAF and USAF? Technically everyone wins...RAF wins vindication for the EF, the USAF has another "case" for getting more F/A-22s in service. Just speculating I suppose.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineContact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 16268 times:

Quote:
Eurofighter does everything an F-18 does only 20 years later!

Hehe, the F-18 is gonna struggle against the EF my friend!


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 16222 times:

Quoting Contact_tower (Reply 12):
Hehe, the F-18 is gonna struggle against the EF my friend!

That is certainly true for all A-D versions. For this versions a comparison is almost ridiculous (power, avionics, weapon load etc pp.) The F-18 E/F comes closer, but is somehow a different plane. It was designed as a multi purpose platform. The EF will only be used as a strike and recon aircraft due to budget cuts. But chances are good that it won't perform too bad in this role ... .

Cheers,
Jan


User currently offlineTnsaf From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 16183 times:

For all the money spent and the delays encountered it should bring something to the table, beyond being just air to air.


700 hours and counting...
User currently offlineSinlock From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1646 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 16058 times:

I'd sure hope the EF could beat the F-15C after all the time and money spent, and the 15E even more. When the F-15E has the comformal fuel tanks installed it's limited to 6.3 Gs


My Country can beat up your Country....
User currently offlineNbgskygod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 811 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 16051 times:

A few months back we had a det of F14s down here. They went up against our LaANG F15s, on a 2 F15 vs. 1 F14. The Tomcats came out on top.


"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2243 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 16039 times:

From everything I'm reading here it would the F15 is a piece of junk and yet, to my knowledge, it remains the only modern fighter in history to have an unblemished combat record. I think it stands at 115-0 the last time I read.

User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 15960 times:

Quoting Tnsaf (Reply 14):
For all the money spent and the delays encountered it should bring something to the table, beyond being just air to air.

From a tax payers perspective I cannot contradict. The design of the EF is very flexible as regards its adaption to other tasks. But everything that relates to its air frame is pretty hard to change. Just think of its (optional) FLIR system. It will installed below the forward end of the canopy. A useless position for Air to Ground purposes ... .


User currently offlineDuce50boom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15692 times:

Hmmm....No sources on the story. No information or unbiased perspective, ie, the F-15 could've been loaded down with stores (try explaining to the wing king that he combat jettisonned 10,000 pounds so he wouldn't lose to a EF). Sounds like a typical British newspaper article. Or the NY times, or the Washington Times, post, or just about any newspaper out there, really.

"The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world"

Not for ACM it isn't. The mudhen is about as much of a close-in dogfighter as the B-52 is a tanker........it can do it, but it's not worth the effort unless the excretement has really hit the rotary air circulation device


User currently offlineAFHokie From United States of America, joined May 2004, 224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15663 times:

131-0 is the Eagle's record.

As Duce said, no amplifying info, was it BFM, ACM, BVR, a mix? What was their load out, fuel state, etc. What were their restrictions? alt, airspace size, degrees of turn allowed before calling terminate? Was it an improptu engagement, or did both sides take off expecting to tangle with each other? Pilot experience? I'm guessing that right now all Eurofighter pilots are fairly experienced pilots, with plenty of time in other fighters, and if the engagement happened on the fly, there is a pretty good chance that at least one of the Beagle drivers was a fairly junior pilot. Unless you have the whole picture, everything is pure speculation

Also got to remember, the Eurofighter is still very new, very few have flown against it or have seen what it's cap's are, to develop tactics to counter it, where as I'm betting the eurofighter pilots have flown against eagles and beagles in other aircraft before.


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