DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13690 times:
From the article:
>>A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.
Hmm... I'm suspicious of that
Not so much that the Eurofighter won, it's the more modern airplane, but that the USAF was horribly embarrased. Wasn't it rumoured that when the USAF was playing "hush hush" (air quotes) over the F-15 loss to the IAF they were really trying to play-up the case for the F-22 superfighter?
USAF pilot infront of appropriations committee:
"Oh man... we lost again! I wasn't expecting a cutting edge fighter to beat me, man I wish we had something high-tech that won't be slimmed down to anemic numbers."
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 13593 times:
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 2): FWIW, those were E's. Heavier than the C/D so, if it is as published, so what. The E, Strike Eagle, is Air to Ground.
But the C/D versions are additionaly are at least 5-10 years older than the E-Versions ... in dog fights the EF is in any case better than a F-15. It's lighter and more agile as it can fly slower due delta wings and canards and faster due to its higher relative power. Also its lower weight and canards should give some better maneuverability. Additionally the EF pilot is by far better supported by the aircraft. He has to think less than the F-15 pilot.
In BVR combat the E-version radar should have some advanatages over that of the C/D version. But in AA-mode it's less capabale than the CAPTOR radar of the EF.
The EF was designed to be better than the F-15, it's not a miracle that it proved better at least in this particular situation.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13555 times:
Quoting USAFHummer (Thread starter): Wasn't it rumoured that when the USAF was playing "hush hush" (air quotes) over the F-15 loss to the IAF they were really trying to play-up the case for the F-22 superfighter?
PhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13529 times:
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4): In BVR combat the E-version radar should have some advanatages over that of the C/D version. But in AA-mode it's less capabale than the CAPTOR radar of the EF.
The radar on the E is for Air-Ground. The E is the leading deep interdiction platform for the USAF. It is not optimized for air to air. The E should have been at a disadvantage
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4): But the C/D versions are additionaly are at least 5-10 years older than the E-Versions ... in dog fights the EF is in any case better than a F-15. It's lighter and more agile as it can fly slower due delta wings and canards and faster due to its higher relative power. Also its lower weight and canards should give some better maneuverability. Additionally the EF pilot is by far better supported by the aircraft. He has to think less than the F-15 pilot.
The C model would have had a slightly better thrust/weight ration than the EF. In addition, the EF isn't faster than the F-15 and the 15 should be able to go vertical and keep up with the EF without any problems. As far as thinking less, I won't touch that at all, but in close in combat, it becomse all about the pilot.
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2529 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13445 times:
Sorry guys, I heard about this or an exactly similar event months ago. I think it was likely a propoganda tool yo help the British save some face over the setbacks of the EF program. The USAF apparantly had no problem doing the same thing aginst the Indian Sues so as to help get more funds for their F-22, so you can rest assure the US Air Force knows how to fight in their Eagles.
And even if this wasn't the case, there are so many variables in situations like this so until an actual fight happens, and pilots motives are not in question, I don't think any differently of the Eagle just yet.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5 Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 13289 times:
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6): The radar on the E is for Air-Ground. The E is the leading deep interdiction platform for the USAF. It is not optimized for air to air. The E should have been at a disadvantage
The E-Version is was designed as a Multi-Role fighter with an emphasis on strike missions. Its APG-70X radar has an excellent Air-to-Air mode and which is superior to the APG-63 in all aspects. Additionally it is Air-toGround capable. The only real advanatge that the (A/B)/C/D version have is weight and therewith maneuverability. But the E-Version is the better BVR-Fighter, even though that's not its primary mission.
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 6): The C model would have had a slightly better thrust/weight ration than the EF. In addition, the EF isn't faster than the F-15 and the 15 should be able to go vertical and keep up with the EF without any problems. As far as thinking less, I won't touch that at all, but in close in combat, it becomse all about the pilot.
The F-15 flies about 2,5 Mach at max which is theoretical. In practice speeds of more than Mach 1,6 will hardly be flown. The EF has a max speed of Mach 2, but can easily use the full range of speeds between extremely slow and Mach 1,8. It can also reach Mach 1,5 without afterburner (Supercruise), which the F-15 cannot. This is what I meant.
BTW: As long as we don't shoot at each other the F-15 vs EF discusion is useless and obsolete. To a great extent they even use the same weapons. A comparison with the many versions of the SU-27 is much more worhtwhile ... and much more difficult.
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12835 times:
Quoting Tnsaf (Reply 10): Congratulations Europe! A design some 20 years younger than its opponent wins in a dog fight! What was it supposed to do!
Well, they should be glad about this. I mean if it lost, they'd have some issues.
Anyone else think this is a joint "smoke up the ass" campaign by the RAF and USAF? Technically everyone wins...RAF wins vindication for the EF, the USAF has another "case" for getting more F/A-22s in service. Just speculating I suppose.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 12677 times:
Quoting Contact_tower (Reply 12): Hehe, the F-18 is gonna struggle against the EF my friend!
That is certainly true for all A-D versions. For this versions a comparison is almost ridiculous (power, avionics, weapon load etc pp.) The F-18 E/F comes closer, but is somehow a different plane. It was designed as a multi purpose platform. The EF will only be used as a strike and recon aircraft due to budget cuts. But chances are good that it won't perform too bad in this role ... .
Sinlock From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1532 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 10 hours ago) and read 12513 times:
I'd sure hope the EF could beat the F-15C after all the time and money spent, and the 15E even more. When the F-15E has the comformal fuel tanks installed it's limited to 6.3 Gs
Wingman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined May 1999, 1836 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 9 hours ago) and read 12494 times:
From everything I'm reading here it would the F15 is a piece of junk and yet, to my knowledge, it remains the only modern fighter in history to have an unblemished combat record. I think it stands at 115-0 the last time I read.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12415 times:
Quoting Tnsaf (Reply 14): For all the money spent and the delays encountered it should bring something to the table, beyond being just air to air.
From a tax payers perspective I cannot contradict. The design of the EF is very flexible as regards its adaption to other tasks. But everything that relates to its air frame is pretty hard to change. Just think of its (optional) FLIR system. It will installed below the forward end of the canopy. A useless position for Air to Ground purposes ... .
Duce50boom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12147 times:
Hmmm....No sources on the story. No information or unbiased perspective, ie, the F-15 could've been loaded down with stores (try explaining to the wing king that he combat jettisonned 10,000 pounds so he wouldn't lose to a EF). Sounds like a typical British newspaper article. Or the NY times, or the Washington Times, post, or just about any newspaper out there, really.
"The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world"
Not for ACM it isn't. The mudhen is about as much of a close-in dogfighter as the B-52 is a tanker........it can do it, but it's not worth the effort unless the excretement has really hit the rotary air circulation device
AFHokie From United States of America, joined May 2004, 222 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12118 times:
131-0 is the Eagle's record.
As Duce said, no amplifying info, was it BFM, ACM, BVR, a mix? What was their load out, fuel state, etc. What were their restrictions? alt, airspace size, degrees of turn allowed before calling terminate? Was it an improptu engagement, or did both sides take off expecting to tangle with each other? Pilot experience? I'm guessing that right now all Eurofighter pilots are fairly experienced pilots, with plenty of time in other fighters, and if the engagement happened on the fly, there is a pretty good chance that at least one of the Beagle drivers was a fairly junior pilot. Unless you have the whole picture, everything is pure speculation
Also got to remember, the Eurofighter is still very new, very few have flown against it or have seen what it's cap's are, to develop tactics to counter it, where as I'm betting the eurofighter pilots have flown against eagles and beagles in other aircraft before.
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