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Eurofighter Sold To Saudis  
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

According to the BBC, the Saudis have agreed to buy Eurofighters to the tune of 10 billion euros:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4550670.stm

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Another photo of King Fahd at the wall of BAe factories?

That is a lot of money... too bad they don't say how many aircraft the order is for.

Weren't they supposed to buy Rafales?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13170 posts, RR: 77
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Bloody hell, a bit unexpected.
Good news for BAE and partners.
Mind you, they've had bad luck before, witness the Greeks pulling the plug to pay for 2004 Olympics.
This time the House Of Saud could fall, though horrid as they are, an aircraft order would be the least of the problems.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Well congrats! Wasn't there a thread last summer about the Saudis purchasing as much as 96 Rafales? Where will Dassault turn now? Singapore and Korea rebuffed the Rafale; Saudi Arabia has gone with the Typhoon. Will they sell this bird to India? I know that France is very keen to have the weapons embargo to China lifted; perhaps they plan on selling the Chinese a couple of gross? I  duck 
However, I suspect that the Chinese government would only want a couple to exploit and reverse engineer. Just a thought....  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Well congrats! Wasn't there a thread last summer about the Saudis purchasing as much as 96 Rafales? Where will Dassault turn now? Singapore and Korea rebuffed the Rafale; Saudi Arabia has gone with the Typhoon. Will they sell this bird to India? I know that France is very keen to have the weapons embargo to China lifted; perhaps they plan on

It seems Saudi-Arabia goes with both !



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 4):
It seems Saudi-Arabia goes with both !

Seriously, A342? Haven't seen anything in the press on a confirmation for the Rafale being sold to Saudi Arabia. I'm certain the BBC article would have mentioned it???



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2642 times:
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Very good news for the UK defence industry, as well as the rest of the consortium.

This airplane will replace the F-15C's over time and continue the Saudi defence connection to the UK. The Rafale and JSF that the article said was competing for the order were not in the same category as the more expensive Typhoon.

Congratulations to the Eurofighter consortium and the factories that will assemble these airplanes.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2592 times:

Well, Saudi Arabia wasn't in a hurry to get new planes. But the British were desperate enough to get some export orders for this expensive project that they gave the RSAF a favourable enough deal for them to commit now rather than wait.

User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

I also read today (but regrettably don't have a link anymore) that the deal is denominated in oil - not euros, pounds or dollars.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

Quoting Joni (Reply 8):
I also read today (but regrettably don't have a link anymore) that the deal is denominated in oil - not euros, pounds or dollars.

Back to barter? If you find a link, please publish. This is fascinating! Are we talking x bbl of oil for every y of planes? Or is the deal "somehow" tied to currency rates?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2484 times:

Link to the Flight International article.
Saudi Arabia commits to Eurofighter Typhoon deal
Deal is for at least 24 aircraft.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLurch From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2446 times:

Its Interesting the that the F-15A/C is being replaced with the Typhoon as it replaced the EE lightning's in RSAF Service.

So it looks like the RSAF have finally got there Lightning Replacement that they have been after for a long time!


User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

From the www.eurofighter.com official website:

The Governments of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland have signed an Understanding Document, which is intended to establish a greater partnership in modernising the Saudi Arabian Armed Forces and developing close service-to-service contacts especially through joint training and exercises.

The partnership also recognises the key objectives shared by the two Governments with regard to national security and actions to combat global terrorism and respects the wise leadership role exercised by the Saudi Arabian Government in promoting regional stability.

In addition, the United Kingdom Government recognises the need to support the Government of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in its efforts to further develop a regional defence industrial centre of excellence. In this regard, BAE SYSTEMS will invest in local Saudi companies, develop an industrial technology transfer plan, and provide suitable training for thousands of Saudi nationals providing through life support for key in service equipments.

The two Governments recognise the requirement to provide enhanced capabilities to existing military assets and ensure that they can be supported by local Saudi industry. Under the terms of the signed document Typhoon aircraft will replace Tornado Air Defence Variant aircraft and others currently in service with the RSAF.

The details of these arrangements are confidential between the two Governments.

Go Typhoon, go!!!


User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3523 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Doesn't this mean that the Tornado ADV isn't really brilliant? It seems to be replaced very early compared to the other variants of the Tornado...

[Edited 2005-12-22 23:00:16]

User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

One major factor is that one of the largest shareholder blocks in BAe is the various investment vehicles of Saudi Arabia. Defence is very much a two way street between Britain and KSA.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
Doesn't this mean that the Tornado ADV isn't really brilliant? It seems to be replaced very early compared to the other variants of the Tornado...

How can you infer that? The Tornado ADV was a later development of earlier models, and has been superceded by a better product.

That is like saying the 767-400 is junk because the 787 is replacing it in Boeing's portfolio.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 13):
Doesn't this mean that the Tornado ADV isn't really brilliant?

Yes the Tornado ADV isn´t really brilliant. While the Tornado is great low level performer, a good fighter bomber, a great reconnaisance plane and in the ECR version maybe the best SEAD plane available -even the US Air Force was interested in it - it is the -apart from its radar -one of the worst fighters around. The Tornado is not a very agil aircraft and would loose every dog fight, the only chance for a Tornado that has been attacked by a fighter and is close to dog fight is to drop all the stuff that is hanging under the wings and try to escape in a high speed low level flight.
There is a reason why the German Luftwaffe has never ordered it and stuck to the Phantom although the Phantom is not such a great fighter either compared to the F-18, F-16, F-15 or Mig 29.

[Edited 2005-12-23 00:46:05]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2305 times:
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TO be fair about the ADV it was ordered by Saudi when the US Congress refused to authorize the sale of F-15s.

They have always been seen as pure interceptors, and not exceptional ones at that. The IDS Tornado has always been second to none, but the ADV was never seen as the optimal air superiority fighter jet.

The Typhoon will be a much better airplane, but so would have been the F-15 of the earlier era, as well as a couple other airplanes that were available.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

I dunno about anyone else here, but on a political basis I am not happy with this deal at all.

Yes it is a boatload of money, but at the same time how stable is Saudi Arabia? It is the potential for the House of Saud to "Do a Shah" which concerns me. What is the chance that a hardline Islamic government will end up with a fleet of Typhoons?

Please excuse any perceived slight to Saudis who may be posting here. It is a valid question though, and I'd appreciate any insight. After all the Shah of Iran was supposedly a strong ruler and he ended up out of power and the Ayatollahs in his place with their F-14 fleet intact.


User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3523 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17):
I dunno about anyone else here, but on a political basis I am not happy with this deal at all.

I agree with you, and wonder actually whether the UK could do this deal without agreement from the other countries participating in the Eurofighter consortium. However, the Saudis have so much military equipment from the west, and they technically are our ally. Also trying to keep the pilots connected to the west by educating them here might help stabilising Saudi Arabia (I am no expert here, but take Turkey: The Army always was close to the west)

And fortunately, spares aren't that easy to get with the Eurofighter, so I guess keeping them flying without support would be difficult, even if countries like Iran show that it is possible to fly airplanes under an embargo.


User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3523 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 14):
How can you infer that? The Tornado ADV was a later development of earlier models, and has been superceded by a better product.

Well, I don't say the 767-400 is junk, but even if I thought so it will be used for many years to come, and that's the difference: My point simply is: the Tornado ADV was built later than the other variants, therefore it should, in theory, have more life left. As you know, military planes are rarely retired early. However, this seems to be the case with the ADV, so I think drawing this conclusion isn't that far off...


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2271 times:
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Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 17):
What is the chance that a hardline Islamic government will end up with a fleet of Typhoons?

I think that's a valid question. I wonder, however, whether it makes a real difference? Because if the British don't sell those Typhoons you can damned skippy be certain that the French would be there with Rafale.......



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 19):
However, this seems to be the case with the ADV, so I think drawing this conclusion isn't that far off...

I haven't seen anything which would indicate they are being withdrawn. If anything they will be relegated to second line duties or rebuilt as fast trainers.

As it's old technology they could also be sold into an aftermarket. However the Typhoon isn't going to happen tomorrow and there will be some years work left for the ADV before the last one is superceded.


User currently offlineBsergonomics From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2239 times:

This is a political deal, for certain. The benefits are that the Saudis get to show a new (and potent) toy to everyone in the region, while the UK gets to defer 24 aircraft. This means that the RAF will either get later block Tranche 2 or Tranche 3 airframes as replacements (this isn't clear from the articles - I'd guess Tranche 3). Either way, the UK wins because the RAF gets a better aircraft. At the same time, the budget for the Typhoon moves to later financial years, meaning that the MoD can either offset the savings against the additional costs of other programmes (e.g., Nimrod and CVF) or plug the cash from earlier years into other programmes (e.g., JSF or FOAS).

As for the 'BAES wins deal' quotes, this is crap. BAES has the lead role for managing Typhoon export orders. However, all work is still done through Eurofighter GmbH and through the Eurofighter Partner Companies. Therefore, this is a big success for the whole of the Eurofighter community.

After sales to Austria and Saudi Arabia (and with ongoing negotiations for large orders, such as for Turkey), the Eurofighter export machine seems to be gaining momentum, at last!



The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2223 times:

Quoting Bsergonomics (Reply 22):
As for the 'BAES wins deal' quotes, this is crap. BAES has the lead role for managing Typhoon export orders. However, all work is still done through Eurofighter GmbH and through the Eurofighter Partner Companies. Therefore, this is a big success for the whole of the Eurofighter community.

sort of, the Typhoons for the Saudis will come off the Warton line.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13170 posts, RR: 77
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Tornado ADV was designed for one thing, defend the UK/Eastern Atlantic region against Soviet bombers, in all weathers, in a heavy ECM environment.

The RAF never planned, and never did, send ADV's to RAF Germany.

That this role could be filled with a variant of an already in service aircraft, was vital to get something like decent numbers of them, an offshore purchase (F-14?) would have be lucky to be procured in three figures, the increased costs cutting other defence programmes.

F-15 was single pilot, not thought to be as good in a heavy ECM environment, not to have radar as optimized for the distinct role ADV had to carry out.
Of course, a license built two seater (F-15K or M?), with ADV systems, Skyflash AAM's, hose and drogue refueling etc, might have done the job and been more suitable outside the UK AD tasking.
It was probably the ideal solution, but an ADV variant of some kind had always been in RAF Tornado planning from the beginning, to help get the project past the Treasury for a start.

DL021 is right on the background of the Saudi ADV buy (24, plus 96 IDS), but as it happens it was quite suitable in many ways.
They had vast tracts to defend, from larger airforces, once the F-15's had defended with AAM's and then closer combat, the ADV's were a backstop against any 'leakers' and/or other attacks from different directions, using their loiter ability.
Past the ADV's, the Saudis were down to F-5E's then SAM's.

Quite multi layered really


25 Moe777 : another symbolic purchase!!!!
26 GDB : How so? The Saudis want to replace 20 year old Tornado ADV's, probably 30 year old F-5E's too (the F-16 had been mooted for the latter).
27 WhiteHatter : How insightful. So a nation buying aircraft it needs from the company it part owns is symbolic? Any other insight you wish to share?
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