ClearedDirect From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 271 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7404 times:
Looks like there is some considerable wind blowing as well -
I can only imagine the paperwork that this incident will create.
Luisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7324 times:
Quoting KPDX (Thread starter): Wow this has gotta suck! And also note the guy how he pushes the Blackhawk back over, are they really that lite?
I gues the blackhawk was standing on just one wheel, he was just fightin the wind to move the CG back to a place were it would rest on 2 wings, not carriying the entire blackhawk's weight on his arms. Anyway, what he did was stupid, he could have been killed, and maybe it wouldnt have tipped over if he hadn't tried to move it back into place, notice how it had more momentum after it was pushed.
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9177 posts, RR: 14 Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7251 times:
A few points of note...
1.. It is NOT a Blackhawk.., but the Navy version called the Seahawk.
2.. It is NOT on a Carrier, but looks like an Arlegh Burke Class DDG Destroyer.
If you noticed the engine plug streams blowing in the wind, they were in pretty heavy winds - seas. I was shocked they were even getting ready to launch. Another point to note... they were not using the arresting system. This is a cable system that allows the helicopter to land on teh deck in rolling seas. The helicopter drops a hooh that locks into the track on the deck and pulls the helicopter down, locking it to the deck.
[Edited 2006-01-11 23:44:10]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
ImperialAero From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 45 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7241 times:
Are you guys seriously suggesting that the chap managed to make any impact on the motion of the 7 tonne Blackhawk as it rolled on the deck, due to the (obvious) gale force winds that were causing it to roll...
If you are Luisca, you're deluding yourself...
The helicopter rocks back because the wind drops, not because the guy makes a feeble attempt to push it over.
Gatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7100 times:
The ground crew had nothing to do with returning the helicopter to its level stance. The wind subsided and the copter fell back on its own weight. Can't imagine the hell that crew went through when they had to report to thier superiors!
Leothedog From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 152 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5089 times:
Quoting N754PR (Reply 11): Blackhawk/Seahawk....... Military
Aircraft carrier..... Military
WRONG FORUM
*Handing N754PR a chill pill and a glass of water*
Devil505x From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 232 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4670 times:
Quoting TIMC (Reply 2): I think that video must be faked somehow.
If that was really filmed on an aircraft carrier, how did the cameraman keep his hand so steady with all the swell?
I feel the same way. In addition how could a helicopter weighing in at a couple of tons tip over while there are several crew members who do not appear at all to be affected by the ships movement. Could the heli be some kind of mockup for possibly training the ship's personnel in helicopter operations.
Aztec01 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 143 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4534 times:
Doubt very highly it is a 'mockup'.
Couple of observations:
The wind is very definitely blowing the clothing of the crew as well as the 'remove before flight' pins on the Hawk. The crew provide a significantly less profile to the wind so they didn't get blown overboard.
After it tips over the wind still pushes it, ever so slightly, toward the railing.
A second crewman, apparently aware of the foolishness, urges/pulls/convinces the first crewman back after he tried to right the Hawk
At one point lights start flashing on and off on the tailplane. No, it's not a mockup.
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9177 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4444 times:
I talked with a fellow co-worker today who is also a UH-60 Crew Chief in the Guard. I was told that gusts at 15kts require the blades be secured... gusts at 30kts require the helicopter to be chained down.... and if it's light on fuel.. look out.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
JohnM From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 305 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4418 times:
No such wind restrictions apply to a plan vanilla UH-60. The rotor system may start and/or stop at wind speed up to 45 knots. So if the wind is 40 kts, go ahead and start your Hawk. The aircraft is a stable machine on the ground in windy conditions, as long as the tail wheel is locked and brakes set. I can't comment about shipboard conditions however. I've seen anti flap assemblies (on the main rotor head) broken from high winds, and the only other isssue was a broken tail lock pin from winds. The aircraft stayed on it's wheels just fine.
1.. It is NOT a Blackhawk.., but the Navy version called the Seahawk.
2.. It is NOT on a Carrier, but looks like an Arlegh Burke Class DDG Destroyer
Both correct.
Major difference is the Seahawk has the tailwheel near the back of the cabin vs. at the end of the tail. I'm not sure, but this may slightly raise the CofG while the helo is on it's wheels compared to the Blackhawk.
Also, carriers have a clear deck & sail directly into the wind during launch & recovery. Destroyers sail with the wind about 30 degrees to either side, since the superstructure would create unsafe & unpredictable turbulence if they had the wind directly on the bow.
If you look at the video, you can see two tracks on the deck where the hauldown system that EMBQA mentioned would travel while the helo was moved onto the deck from the hangar. I have no idea why it wasn't used, unless it was broken.
Could they have been doing some sort of maintenance checks that required an engine start?
WrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1685 posts, RR: 10 Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4313 times:
They are carrying out a 'Straightening' which entails the moving of the helo with the Beartrap (RAST) system and the Tail Guide Winches (TGW). it could be an OHP class frigate (FFH7) or an Arliegh Burke [Flt 2](DDG51)
Look at the Video at 200% and you can see the TGWs on either side of the helo (from the deck edge hooked on to the tail) and the fact the helo is traversing aft leads me to believe they were straightening the helo outside the deck motion limits (3 deg pitch and 10 deg roll). The winds may have had some impact but deck motion is more likely without seeing the horizon it is hard to tell.
Some links about how it works http://www.readyayeready.com/timeline/1960s/beartrap/ http://www.indaltech.com/products/rast/rast.htm
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9177 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4285 times:
Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 19): it could be an OHP class frigate (FFH7) or an Arliegh Burke [Flt 2](DDG51)
It's not an FFG-7 Perry Class Frigate as it has two arresting tracks. Perry Class Frigates only have one. My money is on a (Flight II) Arliegh Burke Class Destroyer. 'Flight II' is just the second generation class of the Destroyer were they added the Helo hangar.
My first 'real job' out of high school was working for the Maritime Engineering and Design company that designed the DDG-51 class.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28959 posts, RR: 66 Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4278 times:
Quoting Visityyj (Reply 5): There is no camerman, it's a CCTV camera fixed to the ship so it rolls with the ship giving a 'steady' image.
I'll look for it but last year I put up a video taken from the hoist winch of a USCG Jayhawk looking straight down at a hoist in the basket. It looks like the helicopter is rising up and down dramaticly, but in fact the helicopter is hovering at a constant height, and what you are seeing is the tops and troughs of the waves. Same thing is happening here.
Quoting ImperialAero (Reply 7): The helicopter rocks back because the wind drops, not because the guy makes a feeble attempt to push it over.
Impulse vs. training....instinct won in this case.
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 9): The wind subsided and the copter fell back on its own weight
Wasn't the wind, it was the rolling of the ship in the sea.
Quoting Devil505x (Reply 14): crew members who do not appear at all to be affected by the ships movement. Could
Just another day on the sea, the more time you spend out there the less it affects you.
Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 18): Major difference is the Seahawk has the tailwheel near the back of the cabin vs. at the end of the tail. I'm not sure, but this may slightly raise the CofG while the helo is on it's wheels compared to the Blackhawk.
I would say yes, I was in a Blackhawk unit in the Army, and seen a lot of USCG Jayhawks up close (Same tailwheel) and the naval versions definately sit with their arse up in the air.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 824 posts, RR: 8 Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4261 times:
Looks like the video came off the HOSS flight deck camera, it's mounted to the superstructure, not a handheld cam corder.
The flight deck is a FFG-7 frigate flight deck.
There are supposed to be pitch and roll limitations of what can be done at certain sea states. At certain trip points, the aircraft should have been secured for "heavy weather."
It looks like it was only held in place by the beartrap and it wasn't griped down properly. To me, it looks like the maintenance night crew got complacent, and just thought it was another night for maintenance, pushed the helicopter out the back for maintenance.
The ship driver will probably get some blame in all this as well even though he has no control over sea state, he'll get the blame for allowing the aircraft to go unsecured on deck.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9177 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4246 times:
Quoting Woodreau (Reply 22): The flight deck is a FFG-7 frigate flight deck.
I stand corrected. After a second, better look it is indeed a Perry Class Frigate flight deck. I forgot they had two separate arresting tracks. It would be interesting to find out what really happened though....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
WrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1685 posts, RR: 10 Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4240 times:
Quoting Woodreau (Reply 22): The ship driver will probably get some blame in all this as well even though he has no control over sea state, he'll get the blame for allowing the aircraft to go unsecured on deck.
Along with the LSO and the Deck Director. Someone on the bridge or in the Ops room knew what was happening because thats were the CCTV is controlled from and the camera followed the A/C as it rolled over.
WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
25 Jush: I concur. For me the whole thing looks like a model or a test research or something else. Doesn't look real. Looks even indoor. Regds jush
26 Checksixx: Jush...I hope your kidding...there are people inside the helicopter that you can see on the video and if it was testing..no one would be inside it or
27 SlamClick: Am I really the first person to notice the cable pulling it over from beyond the left side frameline? It looks like a training film being made. How do
28 L-188: Yeah I think you were. But I think that might be a tie down rope for the rotor blade.
29 Checksixx: No-one here must know how to read very well. THE CAMERA IS A FIXED CAMERA. End of story. And yes, there are cables attached to the helicopter midway b
30 WrenchBender: Doesn't anyone actually read what has already been posted. I may be a dumb Canadian zoomie, but I have spent 7 years working aboard Canadian Navy fri
31 MissedApproach: After watching the clip a few more times, I noticed the collar for the hauldown system is under the helicopter as it rolls over, & it appears to be tr
32 EMBQA: Please show me where I said it was restricted from flying in those wind conditions...??? Only that on the ramp it must be secured under those conditi
33 UH60FtRucker: Ok, I know this has been stated already, but this is NOT a Black Hawk. And note, it's two words, not one. This is a Sea Hawk. Sorry, but I never like
34 JohnM: EMBQA, You might have misunderstood my reply. First rotor tiedowns are not required @ 15 kts on the UH-60. They are only required when wind conditions
35 WrenchBender: Take a closer look, approx 4 feet aft of the forward 'T' Line you can see the tail guide winch pulley on the ships port side. Once the helo comes to
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2451 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 133 posts, 
From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 519 posts, 
Its just another variant, and plus thats beside the question..
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
Sponsor Message: 
Printer friendly format
