YKA From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 766 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1759 times:
Now that Poland has joined NATO, I think its pretty emberassing that their fleet still consists of inferior Russian a/c(exept for maybe the Mig-29) that do not stand up to newer western aircraft. All the MIG, Sukohi, Mi helicopters and Antenov a/c have to go asap. The Yak-42's personel transports should also be replaced with Challengers or similar aircraft. As it stands now, the Air Force is in the same defencive situation as it was before WW2 broke out.
Does anyone have any info on whether there are any plans to modernise the fleet? Any input would be appreciated.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10208 posts, RR: 25 Reply 1, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1672 times:
They want to, but do not have the funds at the moment.
Replacing the Yaks with Canadairs is not a priority at all. They work well.
First priority is the MiG-21s and Su-17s. MiG-29 can last another decade or so.
Then for the helicopters (but then, Mi-17s are used by other NATO members as well).
Kuba74 From Poland, joined Mar 2000, 432 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1664 times:
Polish government invited tenders for multipurpose military aircraft. They will choose between: F-16, JAS Grippen and Mirage 2000. The governmet plans to get by 2003 at least one squadron of new aircraft.
Poland has recently announced to buy at least 10 transport planes- CASA CN-235.
MiG31 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1653 times:
What do you think about say... for example Su-27. It would be cheaper and even better is some ways since someone said they are low on cash
YKA From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 766 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1648 times:
I hope they go for the F-16, though i'm somehow thinking it may be too expensive for them. It is a combat proven design, unlike all the other candidates.
I thought they were also considering the Eurofighter and the F/A-18...what happened to that?
Flight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3221 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1649 times:
F-16's are relitivility low-cost fighters.
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today
Sharpnfuzzy From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 570 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1649 times:
Well I hope they get something soon to replace the mig-21s and su-17s, but they can keep the mig-29s.... cause they're still capable of kicking some ass!.... but the others must go. I'm sure if they had the money they would have done it by now.... I remember before they joined nato they were hesitating because of the huge cost that it would bring. As for the choices I'd like to see some Polish F-16s and F-18s......
BTW they were considering the Grippens, and the picture is fake.... but this is what they might have looked like:
CannibalZ3 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 391 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1643 times:
I heard that the Polish did go for the F-16, leased F-16As from the D-M graveyard, with an eventual buy. Might be wrong about that, but pretty sure
Regards,
Zach
YKA From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 766 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1630 times:
I had a look at the specs of the Gripen and figured that it may be a better choice than the F-16. It's lighter so burns less fuel, offers the same high performance and can carry the same proven weapons as the F-16.
I hope they don't go for the Mirage 2000, it seems the Mirage series has been around for ages and never achieved any real attention or positive combat status.
Kuba, what airplane do you think they are likely to choose?
Fireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1621 times:
i THINK THAT GRIPEN IS BEST CHOICE OF THE MENTIONED F-16 IS ALSO GOOD BUT YOU GENERATION OLDER.
THERE WAS SOME TALKS ABOUT FREE CHARGES LEASE OF F-16 BUT NOTHING YET .
i HOPE SO THAT THEY WONT CHOOSE MIRAGE .
Mig-31
I also like flanker but poland wont buy a single thing from russia because of the fourth dimension-politics
MiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1610 times:
all you guys are so damn exaited about Poland changing its air park - are we going to war or something??? do you know why NATO insists on MiG-29 replacement, for instance in Bulgaria? - because they are too good for western standards, that's why. it would be way more cheaper for Poland to modernise MiGs rather than buying new, THIRD generation fighters such as, huh!, f-16. MiG-29SM goes beyond any western modernised f-16. it has way better radars and all that other stuff, but the modernization prosses turns out to be less harmful for pilots, economy, and the mashines that havent flown half of their potential. and, oh maaaan, NATO doesnt get to make any money from selling Poland any f-16s, how tragic is that... poor NATO...
Dee
5th generation: F-22, and... that's pretty much it. You can argue that the MiG 1.42, and the S-37 can also fit in this category, but those a/c, as well as the YF-23 are technology demonstration platforms.
Bulgaria isn't part of NATO, and I'm not sure they even have MiG-29's.
You say that the MiG-29SMT is superior to "any F-16". Are you speaking in terms of Air-to-air, air-to-ground, or both capabilities?
The MiG-29SMT is very advanced, but I don't think it is as advanced as the F-16 Block 50 or 60.
Although I would hate to see Germany, Hungary, the Czech Republic, or any other European county get rid of their MiG-29's (I don't believe they will replace them, all those countries have a very small amount of MiG-29's, the a/c that they are planning to replace are MiG-21's, MiG-23's, Su-17/20/22's, Su-25's etc.), I can see why NATO would like those countries to have western equipment (apart from the financial benefits). It is much easier and more efficient to fight or train alongside with a country that uses the same missiles and bombs as you do, and operates a/c that require the same types of ground equipment. Also, apart from the MiG-29, all those other a/c are indeed old and inferior. Sure, you could upgrade a MiG-21's avionics ("that other stuff"), but you can't add to the 5 weapon carrying points on its wings and fuselage. Anohter reason why the new NATO members would like to purchase western a/c is because a smaller amount of those a/c can perform the duties of more old and inferior a/c (again, not referring to the MiG-29), that means that the country will save a lot of money over a long period of time. Less pilots and ground crew to train and sustain, less fuel to burn, possibly less air bases, less infrastructure needed, their new a/c are likely to be cheaper to maintain in terms of manpower and spare parts as well.
MiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1607 times:
ok, lets get it strait:
3d gen fighters: F-16's one of them - look at the year it was designed.
4th: f-16 - gone through modifications; f-15; blah blah... su-27; 30; 33; 35; MiG-29; 31;
5th: f-22; 23; 26; blah blah... su-30mk; 37; 47; MiG-1.44; 31M. 29SMT
6th: ups, i'll be probably dead by then...!
MiG-29SMT way more advanced to f-16; geee, man, even the first models of MiG-29 are more superior!!! would you stop wondering about it already, it's a 20 year old topic and americans admited it, ok!? and anyway you go, first and primer goal for american capitalists is to put their product everywhere only because of money. their plains crashed almost every day last year, look up statistics, but yet, they still say "we are better!" f-16 has almost reached 4000 market production. it is first of all a 3d gen fighter, it is going out of business, realise that! they are just trying to sell as more as possible to then provide 'em with tech support, reparement, and modifications. that will bring a hell of a lot money to US!!! and that is the only reason why they do it. u said something about Bulgaria? - here: they will not accept Bulgaria in NATO unless they change their air park to f-16 as well; and Bulgaria has nearly 20 of our MiGs!!! if you think im that dumb that i dont know what countries are in NATO, you may stop wondering about that one, ok! i'm just curious, when russia will be joining NATO, (which i dont support at all!) are they gonna make us fly f-16 as well??? huh! well you aint getting my ass out of my MiG!!!
Fireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1601 times:
Bulgaria doesn't own fulcrums they have a few [about 18]but they spent them [flow more than 12000 h] .
their best a/c S are mig23 &21.
Abot f-16 mig-29 thing .F-16 is a 4th gen a/c year doesn't matter but design of a a/c. Also don't start f-16 mig29 war .By my opinion 29 is more agile but f-16 has more sophisticated avionics,easier to handle[1982 f-16 vs 1982 f-16].Abot latest 29 vs latest latest f16 i think [my perconal opinion] is that 29 is better.
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1599 times:
The F-15 entered service with the USAF in 1974/75, the F-16 entered service in 1979. So, why the hell is the F-16 a 3rd generation fighter, and the F-15 a 4th generation?
Look, you might have your own little generation system, and that's fine with me. I'm just telling you the facts. The Su-30MK, is not, I repeat, is not, a 5th generation fighter. The Typhoon and the Rafal are also not 5th generation fighters. If the S-37 and the MiG 1.42 ever become operational fighters (they won't), they will be 5th generation fighters. The MiG-29SMT is also not 5th generation. No 4th generation fighter platform can be upgraded into 5th generation, no matter how much stealthier you make them, or how much you upgrade their avionics. The F-22 was designed to be stealth. The MiG-29, Su-30 etc. weren't. The F-22 is the only a/c that has Super-Cruise ability. The F-22 is not only radar-steathy, it is also very difficult to detect using IR detectors, sound detectors, and maybe even visually. All those factors are the reasons why the F-22 is the only true 5th generation fighter out there.
The F-16 is not 3rd generation fighter. It is the first fighter to use fly-by-wire, and other new technological innovations, like a unique unstable aerodynamical design, a "bubble" cocpit, improved cockpit design, a high-bypass engine etc.
Some of those technologies were first demonstrated on 3rd generation fighters, but never before they were combined together.
The F-16 already reached and passed the 4000 production a/c. Many more are on order.
Let's get back to cockpit design. Some people keep saying that "pilots are not supposed to have fun in the cockpit". By saying that, those members criticize western cockpit design, while justifying the Russian ones. All those advances are not to make the cockpit look better at airshows. When a pilot has all the information he needs clearly displayed in front of him, and when he has all his controls at easy and quick reach, he will spend most of his time looking out at his targets, rather than flipping switches in the cockpit, trying to make sense of the tons of information that are shown to him, or reaching under his seat to switch to gun mode (as it is done on the F-4). Better cockpit design is not for showing off, its purpose, which it fulfills succesfully, is to make the man and the machine work as a perfect combination, that makes the man-machine team much, much more dangerous in combat, especially in air-to-air combat.
Fireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1593 times:
Actually Sniper bought that[f-16 3th gen a/c] from this cite : http://www.brazd.ru/craft/
<1>Click c sh a
<2>Click than Lockheed -martin
and you'll see f-16 a/c 3th gen.
The cite is intersthing with good videous but it's on russian
MiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1594 times:
to LY744 -> have you sat in any of those plains you just spoke about? and by saing "not to have fun" means you dont jerk off on control panel!!! - nobody critisysed anyone! it is u, dumb fucks, who discriminate against us, and what the hell, we dont like you that much either. have you seen a MiG-29 cabin? - if yes, is that not enough? if no, then just shut it. like i said f's have a lot of unneeded crap in 'em - that makes their plains heavier, harder to maintain, harded to modernise, harder to repair, harded to check them flight after flight, harder to give up the idea that they are too damn old to throw them away. read the articles about our first demonstrations of our MIGs. read what the americans said when they first saw them. read how surprised they were to find no screens in the cabin but yet being able to catch other plains before they catch us.
and once again, even if it doesnt have to do with poland now, one of the major 5th gen expectations - superior maneurability. su-30mk is the most maneurable a/c in the world. you might just as well say that f-22 is not a 5th gen fighter because it lacks meneuvrability, despite its freaking invisiblessness. just like me, you dont have a clue about our newest teck in this area. and just to remind you of one thing - i dont give a flying fuck about how rich your country is, we were always one step ahead in thecnological progress, despite the fact that we are the poorest country in the world - are u angree? ah, you've always been and you know it better than i do...
i expect your next statement to be about poland.
Dee
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 13 Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1595 times:
Gee, so many people call me names around here lately!
BTW, that's against the rules.
Yes, I have seen several different MiG-29 cockpits. The original MiG-29's cockpit is not different from that of a MiG-23 or a MiG-21. The Russians themselve admit that their cockpit desing is a major flaw in most of their a/c. That is not debetable.
"that makes their plains heavier, harder to maintain, harded to modernise, harder to repair, harded to check them flight after flight,"
I'm sorry, but that is the exact opposite of the truth.
The fact that modern western a/c use computers so extensively makes them so much easier to upgrade and update! All you have to do is load a new program into the computer. Such improvements can even improve the radar's performance. The use of computers makes it much easier to detect different mailfunctions in the a/c on the ground. When the F-22 enters service, the main tool of its mechanics will be a laptop computer!
As the a/c use more computers and sophisticated electronics, less people are needed on the ground to maintain and prepare those a/c for flight. If you need to repair a problem, all you have to do is to fully replace a certain part or system, as opposed to breaking that system to pieces, and trying to figure out what the hell went wrong!
The F-22's manouverability performances are classified. However, we do know it has TVC, so it must be pretty manouverable, even if not as agile as the Su-37. All of the F-22's innovations and advances outweight, by far, the possibility that it may not be very manouverable.
As for Poland, they have recently upgraded their MiG-29's using German avionics to bring them up to NATO standards. That means that they do not want to get rid of them.
Poland, the Czech Republic, and Hungary are already NATO members, they still don't have any western a/c in theis military. So, why would anyone demand anything from Bulgaria, who is not yet a NATO member, and may not become one for several more years?
"i dont give a flying fuck about how rich your country is"
Fireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1591 times:
I don't like your way of speaking
This is a forum place where people should share their opinion with other people.So i suggest you to watch your language. I-I
Take this like a warning from a friend who already add you to a respected members list.There is only two people there You and LY744.
So i ask you to apologize to Alex he is my friend and member who know a lot about aviation and his posts are really good.
Slobodan
28 MiG-29-Sniper: Alex, if u took it personaly, forgive me, bro. no i did not read your profile. to the rest -> Su-30mki (which is the same as Su-30mk) is more maneuvra
29 Fireblade: 'su-30MKI is more man..... than su-37" Ok hotshot show me a video with su-30mki doing supercobra,bell,pugatchev cobra somersault .... to make me belie
30 MiG-29-Sniper: if anyone finds me saying that f-16 in not a 4th gen fighter, i'll give him a rubl'. i never said that, however i didnt bother to say that is consider
31 LY744: Superflanker: All I did was putting a direct quote from a Russian website. Why would you have a problem with that? And thanks for correcting me. It sh
32 MiG-29-Sniper: who was saind something about Su-30mk not being the 5th gen fighter??? - Помимо сверх
33 Oldelwood: I heard Poland was trying to buy some P-51 Mustangs!
Sponsor Message: 
From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 766 posts, 
From Poland, joined Mar 2000, 432 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, 
From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 570 posts, 
From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
Sponsor Message: 
Printer friendly format
