Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5621 posts, RR: 5 Posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 13691 times:
According to the German newspaper "Frankfurter Rundschau" the newly elected goverment is planing to acquire new aircraft for the "Flugbereitschaft". It is planed to buy four aircrafts for the use of short and medium haul flights. The aircrafts should cost around 20 Million Euro each. http://www.f-r.de/_inc/_multifunktio...cker&loc=29&cnt=787672&src=0&page=
(Link in German)
I guess these planes are meant as a Challenger replacement, after the incident with the former Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer politicians from all parties demanded new aircrafts because many considered the Challengers as unsafe.
Anyway the intersting questions is what planes will be acquired ? - I love this speculations threads -
I could think of newly build Challengers or even the Global Express by Bombardier, the Falcon 900 or 2000, a Gulfstream or an Embraer 145 like the Belgian Air Force uses.
Is the Dornier 328Jet still being build ? Because this would be my favorit choice . The aircraft would be build in Germany, perfect for short and medium hauls, has a bigger cabin then the other business jets and last but not least it is build in Germany.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
A319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13685 times:
Quoting Columba (Thread starter): I guess these planes are meant as a Challenger replacement, after the incident with the former Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer politicians from all parties demanded new aircrafts because many considered the Challengers as unsafe.
What was the incident with Joschka Fischer?
Quoting Columba (Thread starter): I could think of newly build Challengers or even the Global Express by Bombardier, the Falcon 900 or 2000, a Gulfstream or an Embraer 145 like the Belgian Air Force uses.
Would the Global Express fit into the €20M price-tag? But I guess each country associated with 'their' aircraft will try and tout them to the Luftwaffe!
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5621 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13679 times:
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1): What was the incident with Joschka Fischer?
I am not 100 % sure but if I remember correctly it was an engine fire shortly after take-off in Berlin-Tegel. The media covered it pretty dramatically especially the yellow press which you can always read in the Berlin Metro trains
I do remember the reaction of Fischer in the media though, as he said to Schroeder and Struck what had to happen until the jets will finally be replaced or must his coffin first stand in the hall way of the Foreign Ministry untill the aircrafts will be replaced.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13581 times:
IIRC we discussed this before, even though is was more theoretical at that time. My guess are a bunch of Falcon 2000EXs as they are an appropriate replace for the Challengers because
they fit into the 20m Euro price limit (was it 18m for the green airplane??? I think so ...),
they excel the old CL6s in range, space and economics
and they are an European/French product.
My guess is 3-4 airplanes, because they don't have to replace them on a 1to1 basis and don't really need the airplane to also fit the MedEvac role. (Last time a single German Soldier was a seriously wounded abroad they used a A310 anyway ...)
G550, Global Expresses and alike will not be bought because, whenever German Politicians fly out that far they usually carry a bigger entourage with them OR they are unimportant to an extent that they don't mind a technical stopover ...
Pyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 2359 posts, RR: 18 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 13527 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 2): I do remember the reaction of Fischer in the media though, as he said to Schroeder and Struck what had to happen until the jets will finally be replaced or must his coffin first stand in the hall way of the Foreign Ministry untill the aircrafts will be replaced.
Typical "Green" politician...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
Pyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 2359 posts, RR: 18 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13507 times:
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6): What's so typically "green" here?
The fact that they are constantly attacking any form of transportation but when it comes to transporting the party leader they demand a brand new business jet (I don't know what age the previous ones had but a Challenger can't be that old - an engine problem can happen to every aircraft).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 3857 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13495 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 8): The first Challengers are from 1986.
Still, they´re fine and can fly at least another 10 years. And IIRC, they´re in the process of being fitted with expensive cockpit improvements !
Those politicians are so silly, those ones who want new jets should be flown in Transalls !
Oryx From Germany, joined Nov 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 13375 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 4): Looks like it will be additional Challengers:
The Seuddeutsche (big German newspaper) yesterday mentioned a capacity of something like 50 VIPs "to fill the gap between the Challengers and the A310". Sounds more like A318/319 VIPs.
CX747 From United States, joined May 1999, 4288 posts, RR: 7 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13281 times:
What type of competition was used for this selection? Where other aircraft besides the Challenger considered? How come Cessna wasn't contacted? Do the Germans not like American products? Why wasn't there a fly off between these aircraft? I smell something foul. Oh wait thats only when the USAF buys aicraft.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
NoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 6454 posts, RR: 21 Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 13268 times:
CX747, Tone down a little. Right now, the government merely considers acquiring new aircraft.
Usually an open competitive bidding is started which is in fact international. I don't know whether or not a new bidding is required if the government plans to build up a stock of aircraft that once won the competition.
That said, the Challenger is an American product, even a north American.
CX747 From United States, joined May 1999, 4288 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13258 times:
Just having fun. I really put that out there to see if anyone would bring up a possible A330 tanker purchase I hope you boys purchase whatever the heck you want! In my personal opinion, some Business Jet A319s would look really nice.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5621 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13246 times:
Quoting A319XFW (Reply 13): A319CJ is a bigger aircraft and can fly further (and is in current production).....
Sure the A318 Elite is smaller and can´t fly not that long as the A319CJ
but the A319 CJ could make the A310 obsolete
The demand is a new small and medium haul aircraft and not a new longhaul aircraft which you would have when buying the A319CJ.
So in that perspective the A318 Elite would be more likely then the A319CJ, anyway I still believe it will be additional Challengers and no brand new type.
One reason why the "Flugbereitschaft" got rid of the Let 610s, VFW 614s and Hueys was to save costs by having a smaller and standarsized fleet of A310s, Challengers and Cougars.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Oryx From Germany, joined Nov 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13237 times:
In only took the number of passengers - 50 and "the gap between the Challenger and A310" from the article. The rest is guesswork. What lies in between a Challenger and an A310 with space for 50 VIPs? That should be A318, A319, BBJ, BBJ2. I do not know if the big Cessnas, Bombardiers etc. are big enough for 50 VIPs. But one thing is for sure - these planes will not be build in this decade - if ever.
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 3857 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 13207 times:
Quoting Oryx (Reply 18): I do not know if the big Cessnas, Bombardiers etc. are big enough for 50 VIPs.
Bombardier offers corporate models of the CRJ series. However, even the CRJ 900 with a 50-seat interior would rather look like an airline aircraft, not a VIP aircraft.
Now the ACJ in the Privatair layout has only about 48 seats and the A318Elite is offered with 2 different interiors: 14 or 18 seats.
It will be interesting to see if the aircraft is really going to have 50 seats.
*Aggh* I didn't say Challengers were build in the U.S. of America.
Maybe you thought your country was part of South America ... or Asia perhaps, but - hold onto your seat - it's in fact part of North America.
A319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13097 times:
I guess you did say ", even North American" afterwards....
But if you say "American" that usually implies "United States of America", "North American" is different, but I think the Canadians like to be called Canadian and not American
I don't know whether EU public procurement rules actually would apply here (I guess not, since this is something highly political), but certainly offers would be taken from all known competitors... However, I guess that type ratings are more important than with civilian customers, as all pilots are members of the German Air Force, which have been trained by the GAF itself, so (while it certainly would be possible) training them on a new type seems to be rather unlikely for me...
26 PADSpot: A European-wide consideration of biddings for public procurement is generally required by law. Although they might me exceptions like urgent need, cu
27 TheSonntag: You are right, but the defense sector, just to give one example, is largely excluded from the rule... Therefore I am not so sure public procurement r
28 DEVILFISH: Fits the short to medium range and bigger space requirements, albeit at a slightly higher cost. What have you got against your own, my friend? I'm su
29 PADSpot: Range is said to be around 7400km. Enought to reach the New England states from central Europe and the entire Middle East. From the US it can reach a
30 KC135TopBoom: If the German Politicians heads are as swelled as many US politicians heads are, you better just go ahead and order a few A-380-800 VIP Whale-Jets and
31 Columba: In the latest issue of the aviation magazine "Flug Revue" is an article about the Challenger replacement. It states that a new aircraft will be acquir
32 DEVILFISH: This sure seems like a soundbyte from the Airbus website. For more interesting bits on the much discussed future "Luftwaffe 1" and the trip here of F
33 Columba: The A310s will stay No.1 for a while. It is the Canadair Challenger that is due to replacement, soon. They are heavily used mostly on shorter and med
34 Columba: Just read in another forum that AP reports that a decision will be made this year. Favored is the acquisition of two A319s (although I can�t beli
35 DEVILFISH: Hmmn.....with the Brits also leasing a BBJ long-term, I see a trend of erstwhile firmly opposed constituencies and finance ministries acquiescing to
36 Skyman: I actually worked on that day and didn`t find it that dramatic as the media did. There was some smoke in the cabin and the pilots reacted very good.
37 A342: That's extremely unlikely as LH is short on longhaul aircraft.
38 PPVRA: Maybe they can make a deal with Embraer for Legacy 600s and a Lineage 1000? Cheers PS: Embraer is planning on 4 new Business jets. No idea when they p
39 Columba: That is what I thought, too. But maybe the deal is when LH takes delivery of its first 777-300ER as their A340 replacement Doubt that - A318Elite or
40 DEVILFISH: Unlikely that a foreign company would be favoured, especially when the local offerings have better range and payload - not to mention the simpler dea
42 Columba: Gulfstreams were mentioned before as a replacement for the Challengers, but I doubt that they will be ordered if they go for the Elite or ACJ. Which
43 DEVILFISH: That's already the list price for the Elite! So this is still very much uncertain?.....
44 Columba: In May I have read an article in a German aviation magazine about the replacement of the Challengers with the picture of a Gulfstream V and a small r
45 NoUFO: How about the all new Grob spn? http://www.grob-spn.com
46 Fumanchewd: I've always believed that the best bang for the buck is the CL605/604 (at $27M) with a max fuel available payload range of 4000nm at 419 or a CL850ER(
47 Fumanchewd: I left out the DA7X ($39M) because I have heard some horror stories concerning parts and service from Dassault. Other than that, it might be a good bi
48 PADSpot: Too small and not enough range. They need something for transatlantics .. And that might even one of the most likely solutions. A nice way to again p
49 Fumanchewd: I believe that they would be extremely foolish to allow political influences to factor too much into their decision making process. They need to firs
50 DEVILFISH: IIRC Airbus, in a few of their press releases had mentioned a range of 4000 NM for their 14-18 passenger A318 Elite. The item on the recent steep app
51 Columba: Just as an up-date: There are rumors on a German aviation forum that 3 A319s will be acqiured even the serial numbers and the engines choice of the ai
52 A342: I also think the Challernger 850/870 is good for flights in Europe where the CL601s can't provide enough capacity. And then 2 ACJs for intercontinenta
53 PADSpot: Makes sense for a political order, because Rolls Royce Germany has a stake in their production. According to airlinerlist.com cn2997 is an unassigned
54 PADSpot: Usually her entourage is not bigger than 30 people, which would easily fit into a generous business class configuration of the ACJ. Nevertheless gove
55 PADSpot: Just out of curiosity: Can you provide a link?
56 Columba: Page 2 of this thread. It is now closed because the discussion went off topic: http://www.airliners.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34083
57 PADSpot: Thx! I already found it. Could only be either ff.de or a.de, right?
58 Columba: There are others too But you are right these two are the biggest aviation forums in Germany. I am not so fond of ff.de anymore the topics became or a
59 A342: Quoting PADSpot (Reply 54): Usually her entourage is not bigger than 30 people, which would easily fit into a generous business class configuration of
60 NoUFO: Actually, journalists pay for their tickets, and the seats in the back of the cabin don't justify premium charges. Thus, journalist help reducing cos
61 PADSpot: On the one hand you're right, but on the other politicians depend on them and like to use these situations on the flight for casual networking. Hard
62 DEVILFISH: Very much so, that media effectively underwrites most of the trip costs.
63 A342: I mean they should pay a premium for travelling on government aircraft. This has nothing to do with seating, rather because they can talk to the poli
64 NoUFO: Huh? Why should they pay a premium for an interview they can have for free in Berlin? And how do you know prices aren't already higher than the usual
65 A342: I admit, you are right ! But the point I was trying to make: An ACJ costs significantly less to operate than the A310. It would be big enough, if the
66 NoUFO: Point taken, but the Federal Government inherited the A310 from the former GDR. Granted, it costs more to maintain a somewhat larger A310 but not tha
67 NoUFO: I forgot: That's ok, because you don't have to, but than better don't complain. Thing is: If a government allow journalists to travel with politician
68 PADSpot: No, you really don't have a clue. If set up hourly rates for both the A310VIP (just as it now stands on the apron) and a new ACJ in which ALL costs a
69 NoUFO: Hence I said "I believe". Actually, I still believe it would take a while until expenses amortize. List price for an ACJ is said to be between $50 an
70 NoUFO: We are talking about govenmental aircraft. Tax-deductible means don't apply here.
71 PADSpot: Depreciation in cost-accounting is different rom that in tax-acounting. I am talking of cost-accounting, where depreciation is a method to, sort of,
72 A342: Huh ? Nowadays, the A310 is quite a popular aircraft, especially for freighter conversion. And the scrapping wouldn't be done by Luftwaffe themselves
73 PADSpot: It's in anyway hypothetical, but the Luftwaffe is quite experienced in parting out and scrapping. Parts could be used for the remaining MRTTs. But th
74 Lumberton: Maybe the German government bought a couple of the UFO 747 BBJ's announced yesterday?
75 PADSpot: It's more 60mil and plus. And its Euros not Dollars If not converted to MRTTs, then sold and converted to a freighter. They will not be scapped whats
76 NoUFO: Aircraft are usually paid in Dollars, not Euros. "Gaona said the current price of a green ACJ is about $44 million. Completion of the interior, which
77 PADSpot: I am not. I intended to say that even a leased ACJ is far cheaper to operate than an owned A310VIP, including capital costs. Maybe you misunderstood
78 NoUFO: PADSpot, if you want to argue with me, we need to stick to some rules, I believe. First is to acknowledge that neither you nor I know the exact number
79 PADSpot: I use the word "period" in cases that leave no room for discussion. A statement that tries to say that the German government might be forced to pay f
80 NoUFO: I didn't. I merely quoted a source on acquisition costs, and the US Dollar is still the key currency in this regard. Merely replacing one currency wi
81 PADSpot: A pure logical argumentation is still better than referring to biased sources ... Great. I esteem your combativeness, but we really hadn't much to ar
82 Columba: Latest news: The German Goverment is planning to acquire 6 new aircraft 4 of them are supposed to be small aircraft for 12 passengers and two 48 seat
83 PPVRA: "Seite nicht gefunden" For the large one, I'm going to assume it will be a super-luxurious type of aircraft. So how about an A340 (maybe the -200?).
84 Columba: The "larger" ones are supposed to be aircraft of the size of the Airbus ACJ or Boeing Business Jet. This is not meant as a replacement of the A310 bu
85 NoUFO: I suppose it will be less than a super-luxurious aircraft for obvious reasons. As mentioned by Columba, they favour an A319 ACJ.
86 Columba: According to the tabloid "Bild" this are the aircraft that are considered for the smaller one: Airbus: A318E. Bombardier: Global 5000. Dassault: Falco
87 A342: Hm, many of these would be overkill for European short-range flying. I'm surprised not to find the Falcon 7X, though.
88 PADSpot: True, but the CL-601s do not only fly European short-haul flights and hence there successors won't do either ... The earliest free slot for a 7x is i
89 PPVRA: oops, seems like I missed the A319 ACJ part. Well, between an A318E and most other ones is only the Lineage 1000. But I would agree that it is probabl
90 A342: That's why I think there should be several successors, not just one type.
91 PADSpot: The A318E, the larger Gulfstreams (G400+) and the Global Expresses are a little bit too much of an aircraft and with 40-60Mil€ not within the budget
92 DEVILFISH: If the Elite plus four others are already over budget, I fail to see how these could be had for 60 M Euros..... It would be tight even with Legacy Ex
93 A342: I wanted to say: Among the small aircraft, there should be 2 types.
94 PADSpot: Why exactly? If you take out the intercontinental jobs for the ACJs, the remaining flights could be easily done by one standard mid-size jet (I could
95 A342: If just a few officials have to travel intercontinental, do they have to use the ACJ ? IMO the answer is no. A Falcon 7X will do the job much cheaper
96 PADSpot: Hmm, but there are quite a few 4000nm mid-size jets around that can do at least trans-atlantic flights. Larger jets such as the G450/500/550 are almo
97 A342: Ok, then let's say Dassault Falcon 900EX Easy + Embraer Legacy. Zufrieden ?
98 PADSpot: Well, ... yes ... both are nice, but I don't see the benefit of having airplanes of two different manufacturers. If it was my decision and the range
100 PADSpot: indirectly ... mainly links to press/media articles posted there. But if you take a look at Google News with the right keywords I am sure every secon
102 Columba: In a German Aviation Forum I came across th rumor that the Falcon and the Gulfstream are out of the consideration for the smaller aircraft leaving onl
103 DEVILFISH: That's a good gradation of sizes and capabilities. It would be even better when the rumor turns to reality..... http://www.airbus.com/store/photolib..
104 Columba: According to this article from [http://www.aero.de/news.php?varnewsid=2815]aero.de[/url] (in German only) the race for the Challenger replacement is n
105 Columba: According to the German magazine "Focus" the tendering procedure will begin this month. The new aircraft won´t be available before end of 2008: http:
106 Columba: According to this site there is one A319 on order: http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/German-Air-Force
107 NoUFO: I have my doubts the information is accurate. According to Spiegel and N-TV (http://www.n-tv.de/773654.html) the competition starts this month.
108 Columba: I have my doubts as well but maybe they have already decided already on the A319ACJ and the competition is only for a smaller aircraft (Gulfstream, F
109 Columba: According to a German forum rumor from within the Ministry of Defence is that three A319ACJ will be acquired. The decision will be announced July 12th
110 PADSpot: I read on (maybe another?) German forum that only the deadline of the tender expires on June 12th ?? It would rather unprofessional to publish the res
111 PADSpot: Online edition of German Magazine Spiegel reports that Germany will buy 2 Airbus A319ACJ and 4 Bombardier Global Express 5000 to replace 6 CL-601. htt
112 NoUFO: To elaborate on the report: According to Spiegel Online, acquisition is still subject to the agreement of Bundestag's budget committee. If the committ
113 Columba: " target=_blank>http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc....html Thanks but I really think the A319 makes the A310 useless now. The A319 ACJ is more econo
114 PADSpot: True, but I think they just need the number of airplanes for operational reasons.
115 Columba: The A319 ACJ will arrive in 2010 the Global 500 in 2011 : http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...sa-technik-lands-widebody-win.html
116 PADSpot: I wonder about the paint scheme. Hopefully not that of the A310, which can hardly be surpassed in its ugliness.
117 Columba: I hear you, the A310 looks very much like it did when it was first delivered to Interflug.
119 PADSpot: Oh fcuk. I had an awful feeling this actually may happen.
120 DEVILFISH: Update: The order for the four Global 5000s has been placed..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-four-bombardier-global-5000s.html Quote: "Ge
121 Flying-Tiger: One has to assume that the Airbus ACJ order has been placed as well: http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=811712
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