IndianFlyboy From India, joined Sep 2003, 294 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7383 times:
The aircrafts have been procurred from Ukraine and are currently in Israel with the phalcon suite being fitted on it , not going to be in service for the next couple of years. The indigenous project is more or less over with almost the entire team of scientists working on the project killed when the aircraft they we flying on crashed.
Sidishus From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 519 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7365 times:
What is more interersting is the plan for opposing C4ISR aircraft from the Air Force that roundly trounced the USAF year before last...
Designed to fulfill the BVR (beyond visual range) role for “outer-air battles”, an aircraft usually of Sukhoi-27/30/35/37 “Flanker/Super Flanker” family, equipped with KS-172 (also referred to as Article 172) would be able to engage ultra-high-value airborne platforms like AWACS (airborne warning and control system), IFR (in-flight refuelling) and LRMP (long range maritime patrol) platforms, without necessarily having first to deal with their fighter escorts.
For anti-AWACS missions two other missile systems are worth mentioning and Indo-Russian cooperation should also extend in these spheres. First is the hybrid rocket-ramjet propelled Vympel R-77M, a 3.6m long development of the R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) AAM with a projected range of 160 to 200 km with similar optimum combination of command, inertial and active-radar guidance. Second is an AAM version of Zvezhda Kh-37 (AS-17 Krypton) ARM (anti-radiation missile) with 100 km range, which employs passive homing against AWACS targets. This system is rumoured to be present in the Russian Air Force inventory.
the truth: first it is ridiculed second it is violently opposed finally it is accepted as self-evident
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7027 times:
Quoting IndianFlyboy (Reply 2): The aircrafts have been procurred from Ukraine and are currently in Israel with the phalcon suite being fitted on it , not going to be in service for the next couple of years
RAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6690 times:
Quoting IndianFlyboy (Reply 2): The aircrafts have been procurred from Ukraine and are currently in Israel with the phalcon suite being fitted on it , not going to be in service for the next couple of years.
Nevertheless, in light of the incredibly slow procurement process of the IAF (ex: Hawk), one must tip its hat at the speed in which this project is moving along.
Threats do wonders to military projects!
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
BarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2050 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6556 times:
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 8): ...if the only would stop throwing good Rs in bad projects (Indigenous AEW, Tejas, Arjun..etc), the modernization would be in a better path.
Induction of the Arjun MBT has begun, as has limited series production of the LCA. These are not bad products, but the first efforts at a product of this kind. It is a necessary investment. India needs to build its own military industrial complex, and the only way to do it is to invest with the long term view in mind. Getting readymade stuff from abroad is not a sustainable paradigm. These products face teething issues that will be ironed out. Every military product, including those developed by nations with an established military technological base, faces such issues. There are no bad products here, unless the knowledge and competencies gained are squandered.
Aseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2042 posts, RR: 11 Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6524 times:
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9): There are no bad products here, unless the knowledge and competencies gained are squandered.
so true!! had they not stopped after building couple of Maruts in late 60s, we would have had our own well developed fighter series by now. Its never late, so lets get going with Tejas. Moreover, with India and Russia collaborating on fifth generation fighter, it is expected to further expand the technological base of the country. This is how technologies are built, nothing overnight.
rgds
VT-ASJ
RAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6515 times:
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9): Induction of the Arjun MBT has begun, as has limited series production of the LCA.
I believe that the tank has finally been canceled in favor of more T's, and I have serious doubts as to the survival of the LCA--its future will probably be decided by the type/cost of the future fighter.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
BarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2050 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6484 times:
Quoting Aseem (Reply 10): had they not stopped after building couple of Maruts in late 60s, we would have had our own well developed fighter series by now.
Yes, the Marut was exactly what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Funding for defence technological projects like Arjun and LCA need to be drastically ramped up. It is not 'wasting money on weapons'. It brings with it competence in a whole lot of technologies. Defence driven funding was the source of a lot of innovation in the US, and we ought to be spending the billions we'd otherwise spend on acquisitions from abroad, on local R&D.
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12): I believe that the tank has finally been canceled in favor of more T's, and I have serious doubts as to the survival of the LCA
MOD has already confirmed that Arjun production has commenced. It was reported by Janes in July as well. The limited series production line of the LCA has been setup; it cannot be inducted until it completes the requisite number of flight hours required for certification.
RAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6455 times:
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13): nce driven funding was the source of a lot of innovation in the US, and we ought to be spending the billions we'd otherwise spend on acquisitions from abroad, on local R&D.
Completely different reality. The source of a lot of innovation that you speak of was the Cold War--this has been replaced by the threat of a certain bunch that lives to the West of India.
And such innovation did not occur in a nation that has over 70% living below the poverty level. Priorities were not misplaced in the US.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13): MOD has already confirmed that Arjun production has commenced.
In light of the very large T90S procurement the name for the ARJUN might as well be "White Elephant". The ARJUN production is limited.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
BarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2050 posts, RR: 6 Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 6443 times:
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 14): Completely different reality. The source of a lot of innovation that you speak of was the Cold War--this has been replaced by the threat of a certain bunch that lives to the West of India.
And such innovation did not occur in a nation that has over 70% living below the poverty level. Priorities were not misplaced in the US.
Innovation requires a sustained and significant R&D investment. Cold War, poverty etc are neither direct causative nor inhibitive factors (innovation in the US would have ground to a halt in 1991 if that were so), and are completely irrelevant. As far as the poverty argument goes, it is all the more reason why it is a much better option to invest a given sum of money in domestic R&D than foreign acquisitions.
The T-90 suffers from the same drawbacks of past T series tanks. Arjun happens to be a fresh start at an MBT design from a more modern perpective, on the lines of other contemporary heavweight MBTs, not a retooled and polished update of a long running series, based significantly upon the T-72 and older versions. Of course, I don't expect you to see us as capable of anything at all. That's your own bias.
RAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6426 times:
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 15): Of course, I don't expect you to see us as capable of anything at all
The products, the projects, the results, speak for themselves. Attempting to hide the reality behind a cloud of nationalistic hubris does not deflect the reality that ARJUN, like the MARUT FGA of days gone by, has been a huge let down.
But hey, it's India's Rs. Go ahead and spend them!
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
BarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2050 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6402 times:
Quoting RAPCON (Reply 16): The products, the projects, the results, speak for themselves. Attempting to hide the reality behind a cloud of nationalistic hubris does not deflect the reality that ARJUN, like the MARUT FGA of days gone by, has been a huge let down.
Considering your own demonstrated lack of familiarity with the status of these projects in your earlier posts on this thread, why would you presume to be in a position to make such sweeping generalizations ?
Does your idea of showing your patriotism towards your adopted home entail taking potshots at others ? And you claim affiliation with the United States Navy ? Youre barely doing the ideals of that institution any justice.
You don't post in threads on Indian military topics as a wellwisher. You aren't even particularly well informed on various projects. Not that I'm suggesting you waste bandwidth; that is entirely your prerogative.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5937 times:
The investments that are made in developing an indigenous capability to build military hardware are hardly ever wasted. There's a big technological payback. I'm willing to say that after the tribulations of developing Arjun, India had a much better idea of what to ask for when buying the T90, and a much better idea of what it could and couldn't do.
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