Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
US Army Future Cargo Aircraft (FCA)  
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15946 times:

The Army was to award a contract this June for 33 aircraft to replace their C-23 Sherpa and some C-12s. The competition was between Lockheed Martin/Alenia for the C-27J and EADS for the Casa C-295.

This January the Army signed a new memorandum with the US Air Force for a joint Procurement of 145 of the Future Cargo Aircraft, they will select the winning contractor in December.

The Army hopes to have Initial Operational capability of the new aircraft by 2010, of the 145 aircraft the Army would procure 75 and the Air Force 70.

Both the Lockheed Martin/Alenia C-27J and the EADS/Casa C-295 are in the new competition as well as any new proposals, again they want to choose by December.

The requirements are for fixed-wing transport aircraft capable of performing rapid-response intratheater missions with cargo, equipment and soldiers, as well as medevac duties and airdrop delivery. The aircraft must be able to operate off of a 2,000ft prepared runway, and be compatible with USAF/NATO cargo pallets.

Any comments?..

Some great C-27J pictures..

http://www.c-27j.com/photo_gallery.htm#

C-295
http://www.team-futurecargoaircraft.com/index.html

C-27J:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrea Colombo
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thierry Deutsch



C-295


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andreas Heilmann
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Krzysztof Godlewski (EPGD Spotters)




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15943 times:

Are you sure that the Army is going to operate them? I thought that the Air Force was going to fly all of them. Also, my pic would be the C-27J. That would be a pretty neat aircraft to fly.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15936 times:

Originally the Army was going to order 33 FCA's to replace their C-23s, now they are teaming up with the Air Force for a much larger order for 145 FCA's. Of that 145 the Army would procure 75 to replace the C-23s as well as C-12s.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 15934 times:

Doesn't the Coast guard already fly the C-295??


Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 15932 times:

Quoting CX747 (Reply 1):
Are you sure that the Army is going to operate them?

Yes... they will be replacing the Shirpa, hopefully starting by '08.

This is interesting times in Army aviation... the LUH competition is currently underway. Once the on going fly-off is complete, and the airframe is chosen, the Guard will get the vast majority of them. But thank god we're finally phasing out the Shirpa. - Great aircraft, but showing it's age.

-UH60


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 15878 times:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 3):
Doesn't the Coast guard already fly the C-295??

USAF Special Forces also fly (at least) one C-295. Could be seen at Bagram and in the States. It wears a quite simple paint scheme and small markings. Our US friends probably know the exact unit which flies it ...


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 15815 times:

Do we happen to have a press release? I know that the Army and Air Force had to delay this program for 90 days while they re-wrote the criteria the airframe needs to meet. Either way its another MWS to choose from!


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 15745 times:

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...429034-8589-4491-a4ca-3eae01d9c122

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15592 times:

Total purchase could be more than 200 aircraft.

Quote:
Air Force, Army agree on light cargo aircraft

By Michael Fabey
Times staff writer

The Air Force and Army have agreed on a new name and a new joint program to develop a fleet of light cargo aircraft, Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and Gen. Michael Moseley, the service chief of staff, told lawmakers March 1.

The two services could buy a total of more than 200 aircraft.

The plane will now be called the Joint Cargo Aircraft, the Air Force leaders told the House Armed Services Committee. Until now, the Army had called its aircraft the Future Cargo Aircraft and the Air Force called its version the Light Cargo Aircraft.

Last year, contractors competed for an Army deal to replace the service’s roughly four dozen C-23 Sherpas. But as the Army began to seek more and more aircraft, Air Force officials became concerned that the Army might infringe on its turf. The two services began to work on a joint plan at the end of the year.

Moseley said there is no interservice “squabbling” on the plane.

The Army will buy about 70 planes to replace its Sherpa fleet, Moseley said after the committee hearing.

The Air Force might buy 150, but has not determined a number yet, he said.

“The Sherpa is not really an intra-theater plane,” Moseley said. “What we’re talking about is a no-kidding intra-theater aircraft that can defend itself.”

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1569794.php



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15282 times:

Another good comparison of the two conteners here.
Anyone know if Boeing is still contemplating an entry based on the An-72?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 15146 times:

New development...FI is reporting that Boeing may join the C-27J team.

Quote:
Boeing is believed to be negotiating to join the Global Military Aircraft Systems (GMAS) company set up by Alenia Aeronautica and L-3 Communications to offer the C-27J. “Boeing is interested in competing for the JCA programme. We have entered into discussions with a number of different entities,” the company says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...e+for+US+Joint+Cargo+Aircraft.html

Lockheed Martin is also expected to join the fray:

Quote:
Lockheed is “considering potential options” for JCA, but is expected to offer the C-130J. The company is a key subcontractor on the C-27J, although Giordo says responsibility for the propulsion system has been transferred to Alenia. Lockheed still supplies the avionics, but “can offer an aircraft not in the C-27J segment” for JCA, Giordo says.

Isn't the C-130J too large?

From a quick comparison of the two leading contenders, C-27 & C-295, it appears that the C-27 is the more robust of the two, with better range, payload, and speed. There is also the benefit of engine commonality with the existing C-130J.

And, of course, there is probably a political angle as well. To point out the obvious, but this would be a chance to give RR & Alenia (UK and Italy) a chunk of the defense pie, and snub "you know who"....  

[Edited 2006-03-28 16:37:18]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15125 times:

The C27 looks a lot like the C123 Provider with turboprops.

http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/c123.asp


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 15109 times:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 4):
Yes... they will be replacing the Shirpa, hopefully starting by '08.

This is interesting times in Army aviation... the LUH competition is currently underway. Once the on going fly-off is complete, and the airframe is chosen, the Guard will get the vast majority of them. But thank god we're finally phasing out the Shirpa. - Great aircraft, but showing it's age.

-UH60

Sounds like a good time to go WOFT!


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15098 times:

Would Warrants fly fixed wing? For some reason, I thought that the majority of fixed wingers in the Army were Commissioned Officers.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15082 times:

I'll place my money on the C-27J. As Lumberton pointed out, the C-27J has the same engine as the C-130J, not to mention various other components as well since Lockheed nearly rebuilt the basic C-27 airframe into a "little sister" of the C-130. The US Army wants total control of it fleet of FCAs, away from the USAF, which wants control over all fixed-wing aircraft the Army needs. This is a hotly contested battle between the Army & the Air Force. I hope the Army wins & gets its own independent C-27J fleet.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15080 times:

I think that the Army has already "won" control over the aiframes it will receive. The Air Force is going to purchase the same thing but operate them to USAF standards. If memory serves me correctly, the Army is getting the majority of the aircraft.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineKCMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 15069 times:

Yea there are plenty of fixed wing warrants out there.


Dustoff
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16860 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 6 days ago) and read 15038 times:

Quote:
of the 145 aircraft the Army would procure 75 and the Air Force 70.

.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15028 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
The Army will buy about 70 planes to replace its Sherpa fleet, Moseley said after the committee hearing.

The Air Force might buy 150, but has not determined a number yet, he said.

This is where I'm getting confused.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3938 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14986 times:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Jong
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Jong



Just photographed two Army National Guard Sherpas probably on their way home from Iraq. I'm told Army National Guard Sherpas are heavily commited there - maybe this is a factor in the FCA requirement?

Peter wave 



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14951 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 19):
Just photographed two Army National Guard Sherpas probably on their way home from Iraq. I'm told Army National Guard Sherpas are heavily commited there - maybe this is a factor in the FCA requirement?

Peter

It's like they used to say about the P47 Jug-there was lots of room for the pilot to run around inside dodging bullets.


 Smile


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4454 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14949 times:

The massive use of the Sherpas in Iraq is one of the main driving factors in this competition. The Sherpas were part of forgotten Army aviation before the war. They are operated by ANG units and nobody really paid any attention to them. Now they are playing a crucial part in the Iraq war. They Sherpas are old and the crews are using a lot of duck tape to keep them together. They are small, old and cranky. They need a replacement ASAP and thats why the Army and Air Force are working on fielding a replacement.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3938 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 14934 times:

CX,

Can you elaborate on what the Sherpas do in Iraq? I presume it's lust logistics-type flights between bases. However, I noted what I think is a FLIR under their noses?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8003 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 14776 times:

Don't discount the possibility of a FCA buy based on the Antonov An-72.

If the Antonov design bureau can allow the plane to be produced under license in the West, and the An-72 uses an engine derived from the Pratt & Whitney PW6000 (which is a far more fuel-efficient and quieter engine than the current Lotarev D-36 turbofans), the plane would be perfect as a short-range logistical transport because of its superb STOL ability. The ability to do steep landings and climbouts would also enhance survivability flying in and out of airfields near hostile environments.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 6 hours ago) and read 14729 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 23):
Don't discount the possibility of a FCA buy based on the Antonov An-72.

I haven't read where Boeing has dropped the idea, but the article referenced in Reply 10 seems to point to where they want to hook up with Alenia. It would make good sense since they already have a strong working relationship with them on the 787 program.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
25 Post contains links Lumberton : Well, it appears that Boeing has decided to cast it's lot with Alenia & L-3 Communications and compete for the FCA. Boeing enters U.S. cargo aircraft
26 Post contains links and images SlamClick : Damn Army! When I was in fixed-wing flight school, MacNamara gave the Caribous to the Air Force. View Large View MediumPhoto © Chris Starnes The
27 Longbow : Yea, it also says in that article that LM plans to offer the C-130J. How does that work? I that that the development of the C-27J was done under a jo
28 Post contains images Lumberton : This is puzzling to me as well. Hope someone out there can explain it. Personally, I don't see the point in offering the heavy, 4 engine, C-130 to th
29 DEVILFISH : I can't seem to figure out how LM got shut out of the C27J program. Was there bad blood between them and Alenia? Anything to do with risk taking or w
30 Post contains links Lumberton : Not really big news, but it appears the planets are aligning for the C-27 in this competition.... GMAS Partner Alenia Signs Agreement with Rolls-Royce
31 DEVILFISH : As in any race, the favorite gets all the bets, while the dark horse must content itself with hopes of a big dividend.
32 AirRyan : A shortened C-130J certainly has the appeal of parts commonality with the existing logistics and training pipelines - the USAF has got to be intereste
33 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: Lockheed Martin to protest C-130J's exclusion. Details here..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...11/Lockheed+disputes+JCA+loss.html Rel
34 RAPCON : I'm almost positive that WO's fly fixed wing, but they have to be pretty senior to get the shot--it's not about skill, but about rewarding seniority.
35 MigFan : Woundn't the C-27J be a better logistical choice since shares a degree of commonality with the C-130J. Plus it looks less like an airliner. /M
36 DEVILFISH : The commonality is a very desirable factor, plus for in-theater operations, I think the Spartan's more compact size is ideal for quickly getting in a
37 AirSpare : OT but funny! It was also said that if somebody built a runway around the world, Republic would build an aircraft that need all of it. To bad that on
38 DEVILFISH : What I don't get about LM is how they allowed the partnership with Alenia to wither away, and now they come grumbling like a kid who's had his candy t
39 ElmoTheHobo : Correct, most all fixed wing flying is done by Warrant officers. A Warrant Officer received a Commission upon their promotion to W-2. Generalist Offi
40 L-188 : I talked to an AKANG Sherpa Driver at Arctic Thunder 2006 today. Basicily what I was told is that the NG is seriously thinking of picking up 2 of the
41 Post contains links DEVILFISH : It's now official. LockMart has filed a formal protest against the C130J's exclusion from the JCA competition. This could delay the program further as
42 Lumberton : Sounds like the Army is going to push for the evaluation to proceed:
43 DEVILFISH : If they do and a type wins the evaluation, could they award a contract based on that? The result would likely not be binding for all the services, an
44 Lumberton : The answer, as is always the case with U.S. government procurement and contracting, is: it depends. Every contract I've ever worked had a protest at t
45 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Me, too.
46 L-188 : I think the only reason the C-130 is now being considered is because of the USAF's sudden newfound interest in this mission. Like I said earlier the
47 Lumberton : THAT I'd like to see! Not that it will happen but maybe a couple of more governors should weigh in and get this procurement moving? From what I've be
48 Post contains images Migfan : I have to agree and for the same reasons that the USAF is not fielding squadrons of AH-64s. Tactical/Strategic transport in not within the Army's cha
49 DEVILFISH : Sorry, I spoke too soon. Is the C-27J business the same as the C-130's? Isn't it to handle the Sherpa's work for the Army? Or does the Sherpa's missi
50 UH60FtRucker : I wish y'all could see just how hard the Sherpa drivers work over here in Iraq. The sheer importance of what they are doing is unmeasurable. And I do
51 L-188 : Who was it a few years back caused a huge stick by suggesting that the AIr Force give it's A-10's to the Army to operate??
52 Post contains images Lumberton : Exactly! This capability must be "organic" to the troops, not the Air Force (what happens when you can't generate a fund cite for mission support? )
53 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Then I suppose from here on in, the Army would solely be responsible for funding charge numbers, unless the Air Force, ANG and the Marines also want
54 Post contains links and images AutoThrust : The Casa-295 has won several times military contracts over the C-27. It has a state of the art FlightDeck and is more efficient.(lower lifecycle costs
55 Lumberton : The FCA is being sought primarily as a freight hauler, not a troop carrier.
56 L-188 : CASA's problem is that they say they can park a Humvee in the thing, but they haven't demonstrated it yet. When I was talking to that Sherpa guy, he
57 DEVILFISH : Read: Cheaper. That's why I think the Army is going for the Spartan.
58 Post contains images AutoThrust : In this case you may need some read lessons. It means, operating this aircraft has lower cost at every cycle compared to the competition. The Spartan
59 DEVILFISH : And you may need a reality check. Although it's debatable, I don't think the US Army is too concerned about that. Those countries do not know the US
60 Post contains images Lumberton : When I get some time, I'll try to post the relevant performance characteristics of each aircraft. If someone feels ambitous and wants to do this, I'd
61 HanginOut : I didn't know that National Guard units could purchase their own equipment, is this allowed or are they just venting? I thought that all of their equ
62 Dougloid : Is it just me or does the C27J bear an uncanny resemblance to the C123 Provider?
63 L-188 : I don't know what the actual rules are, but there are several examples of the AKANG getting enviroment specific equipment such as snowmobiles. Also I
64 Post contains links Lumberton : Update: US Army: light cargo plane award on track for March
65 Post contains links DEVILFISH : I believe that is so they wouldn't lose the funding from the cancelled RAH-66 Comanche programme..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ep+new+ai
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic US Army Future Cargo Aircraft (FCA)
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Fixed Wing Aircraft In The US Army? posted Mon Nov 21 2005 04:10:40 by Lastordu
US Army Exclude C130J From JCA posted Thu Aug 31 2006 14:02:00 by Bennett123
Usaf Merge With US Army? posted Sun Apr 9 2006 21:37:08 by SCEagle
Going US Army To Usaf posted Wed Mar 15 2006 13:18:02 by SCEagle
Ex-US Army UH-1H Helicopters In Lebanese Air Force posted Sat Mar 4 2006 03:08:56 by BA
US Army Interest In V-22? posted Mon Feb 20 2006 18:05:43 by STT757
US Army Rotary Training posted Tue Jan 17 2006 00:27:35 by StealthZ
US Army To Acquire Predator Variant posted Sat Aug 27 2005 21:48:48 by SATL382G
US Army Cockpit Duds posted Sat Apr 30 2005 07:20:13 by Cancidas
Ex-US Army Lebanese Hueys posted Tue Dec 21 2004 11:59:11 by OD720
Going US Army To Usaf posted Wed Mar 15 2006 13:18:02 by SCEagle

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format