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F22 :Speed/Loadout Vs Manouevrability  
User currently offlineFireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

F-22 is promising to be a best fighter of 21 century.
It carries 10air to air missiles within itself ,it's said by american that is the most manouvrable plane ever made,
it's powerfull radars allow to attack a target without ingaging with enemies radar system ,it's cruising speed is 1.5
->is everything that perfect ?i say no,what you all think?9 to remind some 5th gen fighters:su-30MK,su-37,su-47,MFL,mig-31m,mig-29smt-Ruasaf
************************
This is MIg-29-sniper topic i post it because he had some problems

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

I think that f-22 with his 2D TVCs' has no chance against su-37 3d tvc in a dogfight.
If somebody want me to change this opinion show me a video of f-22 making Kulbit,Bell,supercobra etc.
Sniper
Su-30mk ,su-37 ,mig-29smt,mig-31m aren't 5th gen fighters .
Only 5th gen fighters are f-22,berkut,mig-142,jsf and lfi


User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

thanks for your effort Fire!!!

-> ok, what to start on? lets define what a 5th gen fighter is! - 5th gen fighter has to have low radar visibility; has to have superior maneurability; has to be multirole, i believe; has to have most advances BREO systems and all the other vital inner tech. right?


User currently offlineRodrigo Santos From Brazil, joined Sep 2001, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

I think that the biggest drawback of the F-22 is the fact that it doesn't have IRST. This way, it could scan for targets passively, while taking advantage of its Stealth shape and materials. To lock a target, it must use the Radar, given away the location. Don't you just love RWR?? I sure do!

I don't know about the IR signature, but traveling most of the time supersonically, the head-on IR detection should be easy.

My point is: They are wasting a nice opportunity, along with some 130 million dollars.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

The F-22 is not only hard to detect using radar, it also has a very small IR signature, so using an IRST against it is not as effective as using it against other a/c. The fact that the F-22 has the capability to fly at supersonic speed without using its afterburner only shows how difficult it is to detect using IR sensors.

The Raptor can only carry 8 AA missiles (6 until the AIM-120C with its smaller control surfaces enters service).

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

aka!!! 10 mis-s in its stomach!!!

go to http://www.airforce.com -> all there!

Dee


User currently offlineFlyHigh@Tom From India, joined Sep 2001, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2680 times:

Actually i saw a programme on TV, where they told how a F22 would work in combat situations.

The ploy that the F22s would use, is that the wingman of the F22 would be flying 30 miles behind it and have its radar switched on to target incoming Su27s.

Since the F22 has stealth, the incoming Su27s would not see it on the radar, but will target the wingman instead. The wingman F22 will transmit the targetting data to the F22 in the front and that will engage the Su27s.

Well to be honest, i think the ploy may be effective, but still i think it is somewhat being coward!!!

Well once the element of surprise is over, i guess after that any superflanker can take out the F22 in a dog fight.

Cheers
Thomas


User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Su-27 is not easy to hit. its, pretty, desent radars might not chatch a F-22, but they will detect a missale launch. if the Su-27's pilot sees the F-22 visually? - it is dead! f-22 is a very heavy fighter, and i share Thomas' thought of it being cowardish. this fighter will not stay allive if seen visualy. and, as proved before, russian radars could see f-117 with kind of blinking - so they didnt see it as they saw the other a/c; however i do believe that most addvanced radars, not nesseserely russian, can ditect a f-22.
Dee


User currently offlineFireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

By my opinion there's no cowardish things ,there's a losers and winers and thats all.
Also what do i [and probably most all the wellinformed members] understand for 5th generation fighter:
1 low RCS
2 internal bays
3 low infrared signature
4 ability to supercruise without afterburnesrs etc.
So there is only this 5th gen fighters :f22,jsf,mig142,berkut,f23 ,lfi
rafale,su-3[o,3,4,5,7],typhoon ,gripen are not a part of this crew.
It's silly to talking about catching f-22 on radar or br infra red sensors because we don't know any info about size of its rcs & infra red signature.Might be a ghost or maybe today there is radars enaphe advanced to catch f-22 on distance .We don't know for sure.
if you forgath remember about my topic Stealth & RCS none of you know nothing about size of f-22s' RCS [or any other modern aircraft] and only info posted it was about comanches' RCS[posted by me].So any speaking of catching or not catching stealth a/c is just SPECULATION.


User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

one can not stay "invisible" from everybody unless it is truly invisible... once an f-22 launches a rocket, boom, it's on the radars. enemy will at least know its position at the point of firing a rocket, because rocket are seen on any radar - that is, it's speed; hight; direction. enemies team leader then will direct its fighters to that point to establish visual contact.

User currently offlineRodrigo Santos From Brazil, joined Sep 2001, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

"1 low RCS
2 internal bays
3 low infrared signature
4 ability to supercruise without afterburners etc."

That I know of, neither the Rafale nor the Typhoon have internal bays. Let’s assume, their low RCS is questionable. We don’t know the numbers, but those movable intake on the Typhoon doesn’t look Stealth to me!! Gripens´s RSC is indeed low, because of it’s small size. When fitted with the EJ-200 engines, it should be able to supercruise.
I classify the Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon as 4.5 generation fighters.


User currently offlineSuperflanker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Gripen,rafale,typhoon are 4with one + generation.But su-37 certainly is 4th gen with two ++

User currently offlineSuperflanker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Well numbers you want numbers you gath:
max speed [at altitude] mig-29 M 2.45 f-16 M 2.05
max speed[sea level ]mig-29 1500km/h f16
Max takeoff mig-29 22000kg f-16 16875kg
seilling mig-29 18km f-16 15km
warload mig-29 5 t f-16 4.5 t
range mig-29 3500km f-16 3900 km
cost mig-29 15.5 millions f-16 34.3 millions
hardpoints mig-29 8 f-16 9
g-limits mig-29 +9/-2.8 f-16 ?
stealthiness mig-29 SMT RCS is only 10% of mig-29B.
What about f-16C ???????????????????????????
So it's luck like that for more than twice of price you get only 400km greater range and one hardpoint more enerything else is worst than mig-29 SMT.
Another question do you heard abot f-16 making cobra?
Mig-29 SMT with new avionics is far better than a f-16C in a middle range a longe range fight and about dogfight you already know
http://www.aviation.ru/MiG/Fulcrum_Falcon.html





User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Wrong thread.  Smile


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 6 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Hey Fireblade
F-22's priviliges over other aircraft are that it has like FlyHigh@Tom said, that it has o good DATALINK from others planes or ground. Raptor doesn't so urgentnlty need IRST. It has internal bays which is another +. And a stealth +++++
BTW: Raptor 's (plane or bird) aren't th most maneuvarble planes even with TVC.
I think if other planes (SU-27,30, MiG-29) had such datalink, Raptor woudn't had airsuperority


Cobra


User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

BTW: i forget to say the new version of FLANKER SU-27P has datalink - but not so advaced like F-22A

Be online


User currently offlineAlexander From Russia, joined Jul 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Well this is Mig-29-sniper thread not fireblades'
And fireblade left airliners so don't expect him to post you a re
Alexander


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Isn't the Su-27P and the Su-30 the same a/c?


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

LY744 -
I don't know if Su-27P and Su-30 are the same a/c.
But I am sure that Su-27P has datalink like F-22A

Raptor


User currently offlineTEDSKI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 2582 times:

It is too bad Boeing can't bring back to flying status the McDonnell Douglas F-23 prototypes and see about re-designing it to a carrier based aircraft for the US Navy. McDonnell Douglas did a similar thing with the Northrop F-17 Cobra after it lost the USAF fighter competition to the F-16, by re-designing it as a carrier based aircraft it became the successful F/A-18 Hornet.

User currently offlineFlyHigh@Tom From India, joined Sep 2001, 378 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

Is there a model called F-22N Raptor which is the naval version...Well i have not seen it, but the game/simulator i have says that it is capable of carrrier landings.
Is this true?

Cheers,
Thomas.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (12 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

The YF-23 was not developed by Boeing. Boeing is a partner in the F-22 project.

I've never heard of the F-22N, I doubt its true.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineFireblade From Portugal, joined Feb 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

That's a tv presentation.It maybe work maybe not i don't like us informing because i need something to 'smell" to believe it .Making tv presentation with this days technology is piece of cake even i could do it.[i need just enaphe time and good machine[
So you see a story here's one story from me'
<1>f-22 has low rcs & infra red signature but it's not i repeat not invisible .Everybody agree Ok
<2>Radars are much improved than a previous one so there is a question could a new radars catch f-22?
And from which distance ?
We don't know that because there was no demonstration of f-22 stealthiness ?
I mean with real plane not some vr shit.
By my information they are not official but if any body has the official or very reliable please post it f-22 signature is something about size of a amraam missile.
Correct me if i'm wrong.and su-37 radar could see the missile from a distance of at least 60 or 80 km and lanch their missiles .
In a dogfight you already know who will win[su-37 3d +30/-30 deg f-22 2d +20/-20 degrees]
<3>f-22 must lanch missiles in order to shot su-37 whent it do that it won't be invisible any more
<4>Also f-22 has infrared signature ,low but there is one
So final question battle between hiding technology and tracking technology.
Against su-27 with old radars a equipment f-22 will probably has great chance to do that but against new detecting equipment???????????????????
Every answer is just a speculation


User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

...chto bi takoe umnoe skazat'?
f-22 can be surely ditected with optical radar systems, but that is only some 6 km...
in a dogfight, f-22 doesnt stand a chance even against MiG-29' oldest version. why? very simple - it's a very heavy fighter and the only reason why americans had glued those TVC nossels on is to shorten its take off run. moreover, it's speed is low (due to S-shaped air inlet), where as in a dogfight, you gotta be able to "jump" forward and slow down fast (well, f-22 has no problems slowing down whatsoever...) its nossels are squered, and that's a dumb idea!!! engine is naturaly cerqular, so imagine how much energy they kill when all the force drown from engine sudenly changes into being let out "squered"!!! - that's just dumb, showing off does not mean the safest or best. its nossels move up/down sincronicaly (togeather) where as, say, Su-30mk's nossels not only move +-30, but they can move "independently" from one another. concluding - f-22 better not be in a dogfight!  Smile


User currently offlineBattleborgcube From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Dmitry
flankers are also a heavy one but name one could beat them in dogfight.
And what about su-37 angle speed 10g normally even 11 g shortly
cool man  Smokin cool


25 MiG-29-Sniper : Sushki (Su family) are heavy, no question. but the TVC nossels do not allow speed lose because they are "naturaly" circular. that is why they are more
26 Fireblade : I have same informations su-37 angle speed max turn is +10/-4g .But 11g hm never heard about it
27 Battleborgcube : Even mig-29 could take 11g shortly indian pilots already did that but if you get use to it aircraft will be wrecked.
28 LY744 : "Even mig-29 could take 11g shortly indian pilots already did that but if you get use to it aircraft will be wrecked." The problem with such high-g ma
29 AndrijaG4 : I've heard of the F-22N (read it somewhere once, an article or something), I guess it's supposed to be an F-14 replacement, but I think the project wa
30 Post contains links and images AndrijaG4 : Hm....Google http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f22/index.shtml "KNOWN VARIANTS: ..... F-22N Proposed navalized variant with variable-sweep
31 Post contains images LY744 : That website doesn't seem to be very accurate. "Proposed navalized variant with variable-sweep wings for operation from US Navy aircraft carriers" Are
32 Post contains images Fireblade : There's a f-22 N .I could tell you because i flied one of it in many missions. ????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????
33 Post contains images FlyHigh@Tom : Variable sweep wings? I cannot see how that can be fitted into a standard F22...welll it has a sort of ..well what do you call F22 wing's shape in the
34 Fireblade : Check my answer for McDonell Douglass joke
35 Lehpron : LY744 The fact that the F-22 has the capability to fly at supersonic speed without using its afterburner only shows how difficult it is to detect usin
36 Visage : Beware that not all the heat generated comes from the engine while traveling supersonic for long periods of time, there is also the friction heat due
37 Duce50boom : The F-22N was proposed by lockheed in the early 1990's as a way of reducing the unit cost of the F-22 by making F-22's (yes with variable sweep wings)
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