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Marine Corps F-18, F-35 AV-8B Question  
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Posted (8 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8292 times:

The Marines have ordered the F-35B (VTOL version) which will replace their AV-8Bs, my question is will the F-35B (or the F-35 carrier version) also replace their F-18s?

If not would they order the F-18 E/F Super Hornet, the Super Hornet carries a nice payload.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

The JSF is replacing the F/A-18 as well. Early on in the "Super Hornet" program the Marines were involved. However they pulled out and decided to go with the JSF.

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7905 times:

The F-35 replaces all Marine fighters.


JSF Basing in 2023:

Eglin - 1 Training Squadron VMFAT-201
Reserves - Yet to be determined
MCAS Yuma - 8 Squadrons
MCAS Cherry Point - 8 Squadrons


http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/atb/FRS%20...ummit%20Version%207%20MAR%2006.ppt


User currently offlineMigFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

Is there any news of the status of the F-35? I know a prototype F-35A is nearing (or has been) it's first flight.

/M


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 7847 times:

This is the subject of ongoing debate. As a former Marine Air Winger we're already having to endure the Corps making one huge mistake to its Air Wing in continuing to buy overpriced V-22's, but buying all F-35B's seems like a potential for a bad move as well. My point is that unless USMC F-35B's will NOT ever be operating off of USN CVN's than they'd just be better off with a mix of F-35C's as well. Using F-35B's off of CVN's would be counterproductive and not worth the increased costs of those units compared to F-35C's.

As far as Super Hornets are concerned, they not only will HAVE to buy 24-48 EA-18G Growlers (unless they simply get out of the EAW business all together) to replace the EA-6B's they are also going to want 24-48 F/A-18F Block II/Lot 26+ to continue on with the FAC(A) capability that their mission simply demands. Losing this FAC(A) capability would dictate the Grunts on the ground having to rely on USAF/USN crews and that would simply be in direct violation of the entire mission of the Marine Air Wing.


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

Im not an expert but I think they would do well to have their Reserve Squadrons operating F-18E/Fs.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7778 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
(unless they simply get out of the EAW business all together)

TACAIR Integration addresses this, this role goes to the Navy.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
Losing this FAC(A) capability would dictate the Grunts on the ground having to rely on USAF/USN crews and that would simply be in direct violation of the entire mission of the Marine Air Wing.

TACAIR also addresses this. Direct violation of the mission, or direct violation in your opinion? The military needs to think smaller and consolidate the duplication of forces. It makes no sense what so ever to have the level of duplicaton experienced today. Air Force provide air support to Army Troops, Navy air support to Marine troops. Anything else is just waste. Technology has clearly surpassed your way of thinking.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
Im not an expert but I think they would do well to have their Reserve Squadrons operating F-18E/Fs.

They too will be JSF.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 2):
The F-35 replaces all Marine fighters.


JSF Basing in 2023:

Eglin - 1 Training Squadron VMFAT-201
Reserves - Yet to be determined
MCAS Yuma - 8 Squadrons
MCAS Cherry Point - 8 Squadrons


http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/atb/FRS%20...6.ppt

Noticed in that little slide show that the Marines are going to be relocating units to MCAS Miramar. Guess if people were thinking that Miramar was going to be closed in the near future no one told the Marines.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7738 times:

Said units are Helo's and MV-22's. Not the Fighters. In fact it shows the migration of F-18s to Yuma begining in 2012.

You need 12,000' of runway for an MV-22? News to me and the rest of the planet. Live ordinance? Sort of like this BS argument here perpetuated by the military about young pilots with high speed fighters that are incompatible with an airport? Nice lie - yes lie - perpetuated by the military.

Sure bud.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060510/news_lz1e10penn.html

Our high performance military aircraft operate with precision, speed and maneuverability: keys to survival and victory in combat. Our training missions launch with rockets, bombs, missiles and assorted other weapons. That's how we fight, and that's how we must train.

MCAS Miramar and NAS North Island both are home to training squadrons where new aviators fresh from flight school learn to fly jets or helicopters. The first time one of these students flies an F/A-18, he or she does so from Miramar. The same occurs for SH-60 helicopter aviators at North Island. They need space to learn their new aircraft. Miramar and North Island provide this critical requirement. Not so if either were home to commercial airline operations.

Raising the big giant BS flag.

The airport window is 20 years out. Right about the time the JSF is fully integrated (2023), the F-18's are retired and the JSF "training" so vital to San Diego finds itself in full swing in Flordia.

Annex the land 1,000' south of the runway so no-one enters the base to use the airport. Commerical ops are straight in for 15 miles. MV-22's and Helo's don't come within 3/4 of a mile of the airport who's runway would be 5,000' South (the standard FAA and military independent runway separation distance by the way). Not unlike the present condition between Lindbergh and North Island. Lindbergh serves LCC's with a max of 32 gates, the new airport Networks, Cargo and International with 30-40 gates to start and a max of 60 gates.

Totaly compatible situation. The Ospreys and CH-53's will use the Copter corridors that follow the freeways anyway. Keeping them well away from any commercial traffic. It also reduces the amount of operations affecting the damned place. Everyone wins.

You don't need 26,000 acres for VTOL airlift vehicles. C-130's and what not are totally compatible.

Enough BS. Get it done.

[Edited 2006-05-12 18:43:29]

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7723 times:

I hope that the Marines stick to their guns and don't give a single acre of Miramar land for a San Diego airport. Having known a few Marines in my life I suspect they will. It's not the Marines fault that San Diego is run by a bunch of hacks.

User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
Direct violation of the mission, or direct violation in your opinion?

The only mission of the Marine Air Wing is to support the grunts on the ground - the only mission of a Marine Hornet is to support the Grunts on the ground. One of the greatest attributes of the Marines Air/Ground tandem was that they were of one entity and used to working with one another versus the Army/Air Force where the Army grunts have to rely upon an entire seperate branch of the military to give them the air cover (A-10's, etc) that they need.

I don't think the Marines will get two souls on a combat equipped F-35B and that's the only way to run FAC(A) regardless as to the level of tech - so combined with all of that said, I think it will be a cold day in Hell before you see Marine aviation seceding FAC(A) to sailors. If they somehow do not buy F/A-18F's to replace their F/A-18D's, than they must have figured out how to cram two souls on an F-35B (something that I think will never be able to happen on any combat equipped version.)

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
TACAIR also addresses this. Direct violation of the mission, or direct violation in your opinion? The military needs to think smaller and consolidate the duplication of forces. It makes no sense what so ever to have the level of duplicaton experienced today. Air Force provide air support to Army Troops, Navy air support to Marine troops. Anything else is just waste. Technology has clearly surpassed your way of thinking.

If the Marines were so concerned about waste, than they wouldn't be paying 2.5 times more money for an Osprey than what they could otherwise just as well accomplish the mission with in an MH-60S Knighthawk helicopter.

Something tells me that your latest TACAIR info wasn't authored by any Marines on the panel but I assure you that even if someone has already wasted the ink in printing it somewhere, you're never going to get the Corps to readily accept that they are to rely upon Navy sailors or anyone for that matter on FAC(A). The Marines have always taken great pride in this role going back to the days of Corsairs in the Pacific islands in WWII; while the current leaders in the Corps raise some question of the ulterior motives given that the Osprey is still destined as it is, it would be a significant reduction in the Marines MO to farm this out to the Navy. Let me put it in words that even Bush 41 would understand - "Not gonna happen, wouldn't be prudent..."

But what will the Marines be using all of there F-35B's on? Supporting the grunts on the ground and often times from inland FARPs alongside the helos. I still think FAC(A) is a tandem, two-crewed role but I just don't see that happening with the F-35B.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 7685 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 9):
I hope that the Marines stick to their guns and don't give a single acre of Miramar land for a San Diego airport. Having known a few Marines in my life I suspect they will. It's not the Marines fault that San Diego is run by a bunch of hacks.

Far as I can see they are military hacks. San Diego has it's airport problem because of retired Military Officials elected by heavy a concentration of military personnel in their voting districts key to the military installations. Times change, so does the tide, and San Diego is shifting. You can see it in their politics (Duke Cunningham gave them a nice wake up call) as they slowly emerge from under the military thumb. Only then will San Diego thrive.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 10):
The only mission of the Marine Air Wing is to support the grunts on the ground - the only mission of a Marine Hornet is to support the Grunts on the ground. One of the greatest attributes of the Marines Air/Ground tandem was that they were of one entity and used to working with one another versus the Army/Air Force where the Army grunts have to rely upon an entire seperate branch of the military to give them the air cover (A-10's, etc) that they need.

Seems to work just fine and dandy for the Army and Air Force. The military doesn't fight wars as individual branches - that time has long passed - just thought I'd let you in on that tidbit. The Department of the Navy (Navy/Marine) needs to learn to see beyond territorial walls, only then will they be efficient and effective.

[Edited 2006-05-13 02:37:20]

User currently offlineJarheadK5 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7614 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 11):
Seems to work just fine and dandy for the Army and Air Force.

Really? Somebody better tell the Army that - I've got more Army buddies that were fragged by USAF CAS attempts in both sandboxes than I care to think about. Not to mention the B-52 crew that dropped a 2000lb bomb off the range in Djibouti in '03, killed a Marine pilot and injured almost a dozen other Marines, and destroyed 2 of the 4 CH-53E's positioned there...



Cleared to Contact
User currently offlineVisakow From United States of America, joined May 2006, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7543 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 2):
The F-35 replaces all Marine fighters

Maybe in the fighter/attack role but I haven't heard anything about F-35 replacing the new FA-18 E/F Growler role. I just came from Whidbey a few months ago and there wasn't even a wisper of something like that happening.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7487 times:

Quoting Visakow (Reply 13):
Maybe in the fighter/attack role but I haven't heard anything about F-35 replacing the new FA-18 E/F Growler role. I just came from Whidbey a few months ago and there wasn't even a wisper of something like that happening.

There will be no Marine F-18's in 2023. This role has been taken away by TACAIR integration.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7464 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 14):
There will be no Marine F-18's in 2023. This role has been taken away by TACAIR integration.

So you say as of now, but I still wager on a number of Super Hornets for the Marines before it is all said and done. Nothing is ever certain and 17 years down the road is a long time to be forecasting out.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7447 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
So you say as of now, but I still wager on a number of Super Hornets for the Marines before it is all said and done. Nothing is ever certain and 17 years down the road is a long time to be forecasting out.

Good luck with that wager. Program justification drives the transition to JSF. There's no play money.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7435 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 16):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
So you say as of now, but I still wager on a number of Super Hornets for the Marines before it is all said and done. Nothing is ever certain and 17 years down the road is a long time to be forecasting out.

Good luck with that wager. Program justification drives the transition to JSF. There's no play money.

That's just it - there is no justification for an EA version of the JSF! And it's not like the JSF program won't face any delays or cutbacks. Unless the Marines get away from their VMAQ squadrons, they'll be using EA-18G's and not any EA versions of the JSF as has been deliberated.

I think the Corps realizes this now but its just not in their budget to buy anything else at this moment - their plate is more than full and their chewing as fast as they can. On top of the JSF buy, the V-22 is bleeding them dry, they need more C-130J's, the CH-53K was all but mandatory, and the Skids are still getting their upgrades. Once the JSF program becomes a little more definitive the Corps will announce their participation in the Super Hornet program because they will simply have no other viable alternatives to an off-the-shelf EA platform that the USN will already be fielding. You'll see the Marines get out of the EA business before you'll see an EA version of the STOVL F-35B.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7433 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 17):
You'll see the Marines get out of the EA business

That's exactly what they are doing.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7396 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 18):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 17):
You'll see the Marines get out of the EA business

That's exactly what they are doing.

Come on dude, buy a clue! TACAIR is not set in stone and the Marines have no intention of vacating the electronic warfare business. It works like this - the Marines WAY overpaid for the UH-1Y just so they didn't have to let the much more capable MH-60S pop their cherry and get into the fleet. Why did they do this you ask? Simple - the MH-60S is the Achilles heal to the entire Osprey program. The MH-60S if allowed to serve in the same Air Wing as an Osprey would all but readily highlight the V-22's exhorbant expense and all but cancel the Osprey program for the Marines. The Osprey does have its merits and I hope the Marines get about 100-150 of them now, but not the 450 total amount that they are asking for - that's fiscal irresponsibility! I can't wait to see the USN's MH-60S from the Ships Company out perform the V-22 so as to get the MH-60S in the Marines fleet sooner than later.

However, it is the same with the EA-18G - the USN is replacing all of their EA-6B Prowlers with the Growlers and they are pushing hard for both the USAF and the USMC to buy into the program as well. But the USMC has said they don't want Super Hornets right now and are as of now, going to try and keep their Prowlers in the air a few years after the USN retires their own Prowlers in hopes of ultimately fielding an EA-35B of some sort.

First off, I don't think you'll ever see a two seat STOVL F-35 in combat for various reasons, so an EA version is all but chimerical in my opinion and second, what the Corps has seemingly lost total track of in the last decade - there is this little thing called a budget. Good luck to the Corps trying to be the only ones paying for the costs of maintenance and four-man crews of the aged EA-6B Prowlers in 2012 - that will force the Corps to all but abandon that aspiration and they will take over of used Navy EA-18G's while Boeing scrambles to build more. There is no budget for an EA-35B and like I said, the USMC isn't getting out of the EA business anytime soon.

The sad reality of this is that when the JSF cuts begin, and the grumblings have already begun, the USMC can simply not afford MV-22's and an all F-35B fleet, let alone the CH-53K, C-130J's, and the Zulu Cobras. (while the AH-1Z may be the best bet for the boat, the UH-1Y is like the ugly sister that comes with the territory and is the epitomy of government fraud.)

And keep in mind that all of this is the good-case scenario that assumes another Republican will retain the Presidency in 2008 because if it goes back to the Democrats, look for the defense budget to take an even greater cut. The War on Terror is going to keep the defense budget healthy for years, but it's not going to continue its rapid level of growth. The Marines just simply have too many economically unfeasible ideas right now and sooner or later, that bubble is going to burst.

I predict that before the total Osprey buy of 450 airframes is over, they will no longer have the luxury of paying 3 times the cost of an MH-60S that could otherwise do the same job and the Marines will have to succumb to it. I also predict that not only with the Marines buy 24-48 EA-18G Growlers, that they will also buy an additional 24-48 F/A-18F’s to retain their AW FAC(A) squadrons as I assure you, the Marines will not be turning that mission over to the Sailors or anytime soon. (the Marines will never solely rely upon anyone other than a Marine to give them FAC(A).)

Look at your own Air Force, even they don’t have the luxury of getting all that they want (B-2, F-22) when they want it (KC-767,) and sooner or later the Marines are going to be forced to start making some choices because they simply cannot afford all that is on their plate – and we haven’t even begun to talk about the rest of the Corps and their old fleet of M1A1 tanks and hand-down deuce and a halves from the National Guard.

Here's a good source that talks a little about the electronic attack status of our military - budget is the key word and the Marines don't have and will not get all that they need...

http://www.house.gov/pitts/initiatives/ew/Library/Briefs/brief19.htm

[Edited 2006-05-17 17:28:13]

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