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When Will Germany Get A New "AF 1"?  
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5107 times:

Hi everybody?

Just saw the pictures of the new A340-200 for France. I was just asking myself when Germany will replace its A310 with newer planes. Does anyone know more about it?


Tom from Cologne
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3763 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

I do not know anything, but when you see that Germany used the 707 until 1999, I think the A310s have quite some years left...

I think before we see some new big staff, we might see more modern business jets... An A380 would be cool, though...


User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
An A380 would be cool

I did not know before that my country is in the middle east. Do we have oil?  Wink
A380 would be nice, but I guess the minister who orders this bird will have to leave office after that.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
Germany used the 707 until 1999

Are you sure about that? Do you have a source? I thought they used the 310 earlier.

I was thinking of a A340 or a 767 or 757. Perhaps we will get a 319LR.



Tom from Cologne
User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3763 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):
Are you sure about that? Do you have a source? I thought they used the 310 earlier.

Yes, the 707 August Euler was used until 1999, my source is a Flug Revue which had a feature about the 707 in the late 1990s, I cannot remember exactly which one, though. What I know for sure, however, is that the 707 flew in 1997, because I went to a school in the approach path of CGN between 1994 and 1997, so I would guess it was used until 1999.

Government planes do not have noise problems...


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5034 times:

The Luftwaffe B-707 was here at DFW in 1998 (during the summer months), I remember it was parked on the Terminal B North Hardstand for a few days. She was looking great then.

What has happened to that B-707? I hope she wasn't scrapped.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):
Perhaps we will get a 319LR.

Didn't I read somewhere that an A-319CJ was ordered, or was going to be ordered for the Luftwaffe VIP jet? It would seem to me, ordering an A-340-500 or -600, or B-777-200LR could be the long range international VIP jet, and the A-319CJ, or BBJ1 could be the medimum range/Europe only visits aircraft.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
What has happened to that B-707? I hope she wasn't scrapped.

They were sold to Nato were they are still used as trainer for AWACS crews and and as cargo aircraft.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
I think before we see some new big staff, we might see more modern business jets

RE: New VIP Aircrafts For The German Goverment (by Columba Jan 16 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)#ID41224

It was decided by the CDU and SPD to do so but no plane as been ordered yet



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4984 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
ordering an A-340-500 or -600, or B-777-200LR

I think those airplanes are really to big! They can fly nearly to everywhere from everywhere when they are at full load. So I think a A340-200 or A340-300 would be enough for this job.

I think the germans have to buy Airbus, because of the political relationship to that company.



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
An A380 would be cool, though...



Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):
A380 would be nice

No, no and no. That wouldn't be cool but pretentious and snobbish.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 2):
Perhaps we will get a 319LR.

The A319 lacks range. I guess a pre-used A332 or A342 is more likely.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 7):
I guess a pre-used A332 or A342 is more likely.



Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 6):
So I think a A340-200 or A340-300 would be enough for this job.

In HAM there is a stored A342 which is owned by the Sultan of Brunei. It came to HAM to have its interior installed, but nothing happened.

In fact, it´s the only A340-8000 ever built. It has more fuel capacity and a higher MTOW, so it would be ideally suited for the government.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4927 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
A340-8000

What is that? I hear it for the first time. Any links to Airbus?



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 7):

The A319 lacks range. I guess a pre-used A332 or A342 is more likely.

The Airbus ACJ could reach most of Asia, Africa, and the U.S. eastern seaboard from Germany. Except for the farthest reaches of South America and Australia, which is possible with one stop, there would be little else on the "official" obligatory political map. For something a little bigger, there is the A320 Prestige. For European trips, the Elite is perfectly adequate.

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
In HAM there is a stored A342 which is owned by the Sultan of Brunei.

Should totally non-stop performance and size be "indispensable" both for convenience and prestige, then the above (if it's for sale), or OS's remaining A340 fits the bill nicely. New-build aircraft could be ordered and, support and promotion of local industry cited, as a palliative to irate constituents, if the party in power deem used a/c "unbecoming" and beneath its First World country status. A new "Luftwaffe 1" would happen only when enough political courage is mustered.

[Edited 2006-04-20 20:59:59]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4843 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
The Airbus ACJ could reach most of Asia, Africa, and the U.S. eastern seaboard from Germany. Except for the farthest reaches of South America and Australia, which is possible with one stop

Not sure if "most of Asia" is correct, but that basically be the range of the current two A310. And yes, those stops are a drag, since the Chancellor can probably not jump out of the plane for a fuel stop and spend some minutes in a lounge. I guess those stops always turn into small-scale state visits, unfolding complicated diplomatic protocols. Former Chancellor Schroeder said he would love to get rid of those fuel stops, and despite my general dislike for him, I can see his point.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
A340-8000

What is that? I hear it for the first time. Any links to Airbus?

Read my reply more closely:

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
In HAM there is a stored A342 which is owned by the Sultan of Brunei. It came to HAM to have its interior installed, but nothing happened.

In fact, it´s the only A340-8000 ever built. It has more fuel capacity and a higher MTOW, so it would be ideally suited for the government.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9):
What is that? I hear it for the first time. Any links to Airbus?

http://airtransportbiz.free.fr/Aircraft/A340-8000.html


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 5):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
What has happened to that B-707? I hope she wasn't scrapped.

They were sold to Nato were they are still used as trainer for AWACS crews and and as cargo aircraft.

Thanks, it is good the old gals are still around.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 7):
I guess a pre-used A332 or A342 is more likely.

Is that new, then used, then used again?

It seems to me a head of state should be flying an airplane that was ordered new, just for that purpose. Buying a used airplane from someone, or airline, for the head of your government just seems cheap.

Now, that A-340-8000, seems like it might be a good deal, since it has never been used. Or simply order a new build A-330-200/-300 or A-340-200/-300 from Airbus and get it over with.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Is there even the need for a new government aircraft? Have the A310s already so much hours on their frames, that they have to be replaced by new ones?
Besides from range issues the A310 seems to be a good aircraft for the job.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
It seems to me a head of state should be flying an airplane that was ordered new, just for that purpose. Buying a used airplane from someone, or airline, for the head of your government just seems cheap.

And that's not a bad impression - "we buy used planes, we don't waste tax money..." Whether this is true is another story.

pelican


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4716 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
It seems to me a head of state should be flying an airplane that was ordered new, just for that purpose. Buying a used airplane from someone, or airline, for the head of your government just seems cheap.

Why ? In Germany, apart from the cabin, nothing is different compared to airline aircraft. The Flugbereitschaft aircraft don´t have TACAN, missile jamming, air refueling and such things. They aren´t designed to be a commando post.
So I can´t see why it should be new aircraft.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 16):
Why ? In Germany, apart from the cabin, nothing is different compared to airline aircraft. The Flugbereitschaft aircraft don´t have TACAN, missile jamming, air refueling and such things. They aren´t designed to be a commando post.
So I can´t see why it should be new aircraft.

I am assuming the head of state airplane is more than just VIP transportation. Like the US's Air Force 1, it is designed so the POTUS can work while traveling around. It has a communications suite back to the White House, and to members of Congress. The VC-25A (and it's predisessor the VC-137) is also an airborne platform the President can use during a national emergency, including earthquakes, hurricanes, etc. as well as man made desasters, like 11 September 2001.

You may recall, that President Bush was in Florida when those attacks occured. Air Force 1 flew around for a while while a plan was made, then landed at Barksdale AFB, LA to upload provisions (food, water, fuel, etc.) and departed again, this time under F-16 escort. USAF tankers were put on standby, incase they needed to refuel Air Force 1, as at the time no one knew how long it would need to be airborne.

It was finally decided to land at Offutt AFB, NE (former SAC HQ, now the StratCom), and use the communications capabilities at that base.

AF1 logged some 12 hours of flying time that day, much more time than needed to fly from Andrews, Florida, Barksdale, Offutt, and Andrews.

The German Chancellor, British PM, President of France, President of Russia, etc. should have at least the same capability. In thier countries, their responsibilities to their citizens are just as important as the POTUS's are to Americans.

In the US, Air Force 1 is really a working extension of the White House. It just happens to also be a form of VIP transport.

But, you are also right, responsibility to the tax payers is important, and a used aircraft is cheaper to buy, than a new one. But, when it gets down to it, the price of the airplane, including the modifications needed by each country is a drop in the bucket in any nations annual budget, even if the total price tag is 450M Euros (BTW, the price of each USAF VC-25A was thought to be around $200M-$300M US, in 1990 dollars). Each country spends more annually on their legislature than that.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4608 times:

While the A310 have a communication suite aboard, A342 is right insofar, they have no jamming devices and are not configured for air-to-air refueling. They are flying offices with bed and shower.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):

The German Chancellor, British PM, President of France, President of Russia, etc. should have at least the same capability.

Not "at least" but similar capabilities. PM Blair often leases a BA 777 for his trips. I don't know how the British PM maintains tap-proof communication when aboard a standard airliner.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 hour ago) and read 3872 times:

According to some rumors in German avition forums Germany will buy two used A340s to replace the VIP A310s.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3763 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

While I do not give much about rumors in German aviation forums, they cannot keep those A310s forever. Granted, they have low hours on them, but they are starting to age, and while this is not an issue from a technical point of view, flying around in way too old planes is not really appropriate for a chancellor of one of the richest countries of the world.

A used A340 would fit in the picture well. Just like the A310, the A340 is one of the lesser popular planes in the Airbus product range, therefore resale value might be lower compared to A330s (just speculating) for used planes.

On the other hand, getting a frame with too many hours on the plane does not sound as a great idea.

Maybe we just wait and see. The step from the A310 to an A340 would be rather large, and somewhat I doubt that this will happen.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3722 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
Maybe we just wait and see. The step from the A310 to an A340 would be rather large, and somewhat I doubt that this will happen.

But both the just ordered A319s and A340s can be flown by the same pilots.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineCaspritz78 From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3634 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
The German Chancellor, British PM, President of France, President of Russia, etc. should have at least the same capability. In thier countries, their responsibilities to their citizens are just as important as the POTUS's are to Americans.

I don't know about the British, French or Russians but why does the German Chancellor need a flying command post? During the Cold War Germany was the front-line. Fighter jets can cross Germany form East to West in probably under 30 minutes. Where would you fly with an flying command post? Probably not circling above Germany. The German government had a bunker and that was enough.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3597 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 5):

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
I think before we see some new big staff, we might see more modern business jets

It was decided by the CDU and SPD to do so but no plane as been ordered yet

Do you mean to say this Flightglobal report was wrong?.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-four-bombardier-global-5000s.html

Quote:
"Germany's ministry of defence has ordered four Bombardier Global 5000 super-large business jets for VIP transport and medical evacuation. The aircraft are scheduled for delivery to the MoD's special mission wing in 2011.

Plans to order the aircraft were announced in November 2007, when Lufthansa Technik was selected as prime contractor for modernisation of the special mission wing. The four Global 5000s and two Airbus A319 Corporate Jetliners will replace the MoD's existing fleet of Bombardier Challenger 601s."


I thought the A319s would replace the A310s.

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Edit: Sorry, I forgot the original post was two years ago.
Where has the A340-8000 at HAM gone? Did anybody ever buy it?

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Photo © Helmut Bierbaum



[Edited 2008-02-27 19:43:57]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently onlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3763 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3573 times:



Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 22):

Also, since we have no nukes, a command post is not that vital as it might be for France, UK, Russia or especially the US...


25 Columba : No, they were to replace the Challengers, too. People came to the conclusion that there is a gap between the A310 and the Challenger and that they ne
26 NA : Fairly used A340s would make much sense. That the A310 has to make fuelstops on the way to some state-visits where the "competition" flies nonstop is
27 Post contains links and images TommyBP251b : Hi Everybody! You got it! The german government things the same and will get the first A340-300 on the 31st August 2010 and the second one on the 30th
28 Post contains links Columba : Luftwaffe Will Get 2 Used A340s In 2010 (by Columba Mar 1 2008 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
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