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Pilot Stuck In An F-22a  
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10270 times:

Well, as the article states: What's another bill over $180.000?

http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2006/04/why_is_this_man.html#more


I support the right to arm bears
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10264 times:

I'm venturing to guess that the canopy on the F-22 is electrical. That's when a nitrogen bottle would come in handy.

I did find the comment "As one of our sources puts it, the episode "raises a very interesting maintainability issue." to be somewhat of a cheap shot. Show me an aircraft that has'nt had a technical issue or two when it's been first introduced.

[Edited 2006-04-22 17:57:27]

User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10231 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Thread starter):
What's another bill over $180,000?

over 200 million tax payers, almost nothing. Unfortunately that attitude in dealing with billions of dollars at a time over the past 6 years has screwed this country beyond any hope of ever being out of debt.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

The F-22 is just a big POS toy.

User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10135 times:

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 3):
The F-22 is just a big POS toy.

It's called teething issues, same as any new military aircraft will have, particularly one as complex as the F-22.

You seem to have an issue with Lockheed Martin...didn't you start a thread whining about a mere 8% cost increase over JSF?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineBushpilot From South Africa, joined Jul 2007, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10006 times:

I hope the problem is fixed quickly, I wonder if this will cause problems in the future with ejections. I know some in the pentagon would imagine that the F-22 doesnt need one because it will never be shot down  Yeah sure
That being said, I cant wait until they are deployed to Elmendorf AFB in ANC, the spotting will be great.


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9948 times:

Why would it cause problems with ejections?? Unless it was an emergency, which it wasn't, using the explosive bolts to jettison the canopy would have caused significantly more damage to the airframe and cockpit. Its fine and they did an awesome job.

--check


User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9945 times:

When the F-22 flames the first terrorist to burnt toast or turns him into haji jerkey, this incident will be forgotten.

Signed,

U.S. Taxpayers



"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9779 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):
It's called teething issues, same as any new military aircraft will have, particularly one as complex as the F-22.

Yeah and it's not like LM has never designed a canopy before so cut them some slack!

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 7):
When the F-22 flames the first terrorist to burnt toast or turns him into haji jerkey, this incident will be forgotten.

Signed,

U.S. Taxpayers

Uh huh - the F-22 isn't needed for this Chimerical terorist Air Force that you speak of but it will be needed if tensions in Iran, China, or North Korea ever escalate into a shooting match.


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9753 times:

I love it! Here is a forum, supposedly by and for people interested in (and therefore, presumably knowledgeable of) military aviation and space tech.

So we get this one event and the amazing conclusions drawn from it:

Quoting NoUFO (Thread starter):
What's another bill over $180.000?

If it cost $2800 to repack the airbag in my mass-produced automobile this sounds like a bargain to me.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 1):
Show me an aircraft that has'nt had a technical issue or two when it's been first introduced.

Absolutely correct.

First I ever personally saw was at Hamilton AFB in the late 50s when a brand-new, cutting-edge (no charge for the hidden joke there) F-104. Some minor glitch while it was being refueled and it burned itself to a crisp. I recall the F-4 having a minor failure, followed by an innocuous-appearing deviation from procedure firing a pilot through the metal canopy bow.

Hell, I even remember one (now very collectible) American car that had a motor mount that tended to break under heavy acceleration. This allowed the engine to slam over against the left wheel well, sticking the throttle wide open and ripping the brake master cylinder off the firewall, disabling the brakes. And people get all clanked up over a stuck canopy. Bet the degree of outrage over this is inversely proportional to experience and knowledge in things aeronautical.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
over 200 million tax payers, almost nothing. Unfortunately that attitude in dealing with billions of dollars at a time over the past 6 years has screwed this country beyond any hope of ever being out of debt.

Ahh, the old "guns or butter" doggerel from 1980s economic doomsday books. I haven't heard that one in quite a while.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 3):
The F-22 is just a big POS toy.

Especially when compared with the Canadian designed and built . . .

What? The flush-riveted "pursuit" Otter?

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):
It's called teething issues, same as any new military aircraft will have, particularly one as complex as the F-22.

True. And so far, a good deal less expensive than the new Congressional parking structure. Last time I visited that it was nothing but a billion-dollar plus hole in the ground. Not one bucket of concrete had been poured yet. At least the F-22 is prettier than a hole in the ground. (Unlike the F-16 which had a tendence to become a hole in the ground.)

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 7):
When the F-22 flames the first terrorist to burnt toast or turns him into haji jerkey, this incident will be forgotten.

Signed,

Military expenses are a bit like fire extinguishers. I've paid quite a few coins over my adult life to keep properly charged fire extinguishers in my home and cars. I have NEVER had to use one. Money down a rathole, right?

How many people who complain about defense spending cheerfully pay life insurance premiums? Did they ever stop to consider what they personally had to do to make that worthwhile? Kind of takes the charm out of it.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):
teething issues

Again, exactly right. To borrow a phrase from the late Scott Crossfield, whom only 17 people on this forum apparently knew or cared anything about: "These things were just rocks in our shoes."



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9702 times:

Did any one else notice that the frame of the F-22 canopy shown in the photos appear doctored? They are devoid of shadow and the edge along the transparency appears odd, like it was drawn in.

Could it be possible that this was actually a emergency extraction exercise performed on a mock-up or old test airframe?

Some one on the photos site wondered why they didn't use a circular saw instead on the chain saw. The F-18 and F-15 use acrylic canopy transparencies. For emergency extraction circular saws are typically used. However the F-16 and F-22 use polycarbonate canopies. When cut with a circular saw the poly likes to weld itself back together behind the saw cut. The chain saw cuts a wide enough gap to keep this from happening. It also gums up less.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9694 times:

Quoting CTR (Reply 10):
the edge along the transparency appears odd, like it was drawn in

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the appearance of these edges is due to whatever treatment that they receive to reduce the aircraft's overall radar signature.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9678 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
Yeah and it's not like LM has never designed a canopy before so cut them some slack!

You're right, they should have just fired the damn explosive bolts and caused more damage!  Yeah sure Have you ever done anything related to engineering design? I can assure you, even the cigarette lighter in your car involves quite a bit of engineering talent...things can go wrong with new systems. Don't believe me, take a look at the much beloved F-14...strikes me as a bit of a death trap early into service eh?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9673 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
So we get this one event and the amazing conclusions drawn from it:

Take that stick out of your a$$ and smile a bit more. Seriously.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineBladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9661 times:

Quoting CTR (Reply 10):
Especially when compared with the Canadian designed and built . . .

What? The flush-riveted "pursuit" Otter?

LMAO!


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9640 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 12):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
Yeah and it's not like LM has never designed a canopy before so cut them some slack!

You're right, they should have just fired the damn explosive bolts and caused more damage! Have you ever done anything related to engineering design? I can assure you, even the cigarette lighter in your car involves quite a bit of engineering talent...things can go wrong with new systems. Don't believe me, take a look at the much beloved F-14...strikes me as a bit of a death trap early into service eh?

I bet the canopy still wouldn't have fired had the pilot pulled the eject handle and that's the sad thing here. And lets' not kid ouselves here, how many ways does LM have to figure out how to open and close a canopy - this was probably the least significant piece of engineering on the entire aircraft and look at how cocky the LM canopy people have gotten with the JSF hinging from the front - if I'm that pilot I'm stoked at LM for failing to deliver if even just ONE F-22 with a canopy that cannot do what it's done for how many readily similar F-16 airframes and just as many as they hope JSF airframes.

This is like looking at a new Corvette on the dealer's lot and noticing that the dashboard was loose because some fat, lazy, and way overpaid UAW assembler didn't take the time to put it together right the first time - we know not all of the Corvettes are like this but still, it's not exactly positive PR material that they'll be publishing in any sales literature anytime soon, either.

But I'd still buy a new Corvette even if I have to put the thing together myself! See what I'm saying?


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9641 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Take that stick out of your a$$ and smile a bit more. Seriously.

You might be right.

On the other hand you just might be a person who, with nothing of substance to contribute the the discussion his own thread started, turns it to a personal attack.

Your personal style and apparent lack of any real knowledge would seem to be more at home in Non/Av.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9625 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
I bet the canopy still wouldn't have fired had the pilot pulled the eject handle and that's the sad thing here.

You know this for a fact? Were you there?

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
And lets' not kid ouselves here, how many ways does LM have to figure out how to open and close a canopy - this was probably the least significant piece of engineering on the entire aircraft and look at how cocky the LM canopy people have gotten with the JSF hinging from the front - if I'm that pilot I'm stoked at LM for failing to deliver if even just ONE F-22 with a canopy that cannot do what it's done for how many readily similar F-16 airframes and just as many as they hope JSF airframes.

Failures are going to occur, and the canopy designs are different between the F-16, F-22, and JSF. When the 757 first entered service, the f/a's had trouble opening and closing the door...it took elaborate redesign to correct the problem. Simple stuff isn't always so simple. Does that make the 757 a POS toy? (that one's more directes at Jutes than you) How about the A380's apparent laundry list of issues?

Finally, this is the only such incident to occur with the F-22 so far. If there needs to be a modification to the canopy, so be it. You seem to expect 100% reliability right off the bat...while a noble goal that any designer should strive to attain, it's not always possible. If you think LM is so damn bad at this, pull out a slide rule and some drafting paper and get crackin' on your own design.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
This is like looking at a new Corvette on the dealer's lot and noticing that the dashboard was loose because some fat, lazy, and way overpaid UAW assembler didn't take the time to put it together right the first time - we know not all of the Corvettes are like this but still, it's not exactly positive PR material that they'll be publishing in any sales literature anytime soon, either.

Well if we're gonna judge an airplane by the few bits of bad PR here and there, there's a hell of a lot of failures there...and the A380...well that's it Toulouse, shut your doors, you're done!

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9615 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 2):
over 200 million tax payers, almost nothing. Unfortunately that attitude in dealing with billions of dollars at a time over the past 6 years has screwed this country beyond any hope of ever being out of debt.

Well, since you're going to politics you need to be honest and point out one program in the last 40 years where anything was on schedule and underbudget. Seriously....name one. It's not just this administration, and the attitude of getting our defence right even if we have to spend an extra few bucks is better than trying to save a few by not correcting problems that arise.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9):
Quoting NoUFO (Thread starter):
What's another bill over $180.000?

If it cost $2800 to repack the airbag in my mass-produced automobile this sounds like a bargain to me.

THe percentage difference is huge.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9599 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
Well, since you're going to politics you need to be honest and point out one program in the last 40 years where anything was on schedule and underbudget. Seriously....name one

Not to be a smart a#% but the F-14D program was ahead of schedule and under budget. Naturally it was cancelled.


User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2528 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9514 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):

Your personal style and apparent lack of any real knowledge would seem to be more at home in Non/Av.

I would've said Civ-Av, but Non-Av works ok...

I guess if I don't comment on the topic this would be deleted as a "low quality post," so I'll say that I bet the ARFF guys weren't too excited to get in their full gear including oxygen tanks and fire suits to use a reciprocating saw to slice open the canopy... Must have been hella-hot


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9406 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 19):
Not to be a smart a#% but the F-14D program was ahead of schedule and under budget. Naturally it was cancelled.

OK...perhaps I should have said NEW airplane program. The "D" model was on track, but they cancelled it prior to completion of systems integration.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9363 times:

Had he pulled the handle it would have worked. The ejection sequence does not unlock the canopy before blowing it off. You could also say, "why didn't they use the canopy jettison?". Well who wants a canopy blown off and airborne to damage another portion of the airframe??

-Dan


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9320 times:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 22):
Had he pulled the handle it would have worked. The ejection sequence does not unlock the canopy before blowing it off. You could also say, "why didn't they use the canopy jettison?". Well who wants a canopy blown off and airborne to damage another portion of the airframe??

Not qualified in F-22 by a longshot, but I think there are several reasons for not doing this.

1. As has been mentioned, ejection is an extremely violent thing. A fairly high percentage of pilots who have ejected now suffer back problems. Add to that you are betting your life that the zero-zero capability is going to work exactly right. If not, you fall a hundred feet or so to concrete. Huge risk and really bad economics to bet the life of a highly trained pilot against $180K.

2. Can't really tell from the pictures but the seat might have 'canopy cutters' which would start the canopy breakage microseconds before the pilot's helmet did. We do know that the canopy is malfunctioning. Do any of us on this thread so far know whether that specific malfunction will prevent the canopy from separating during the ejection sequence? I sure as hell don't.

3. Ejections are not free. I'm quite certain that the cost of re-charging and installing the seat, repacking the parachute, cleaning up partially-burned propellant out of the cockpit, blast damage and a laundry list of other costs that had not even occurred to me would probably equal or exceed the cost of the method they chose. The ejection seat in a fighter is a device of complexity and cost probably rivaling that of a light single engine complex airplane. The parachute is to spare the pilot, the seat is going to fall a hundred feet or more onto concrete.

I'm quite sure they chose a chainsaw over the ejection seat based on their knowledge rather than simply overlooking the idea. I'm just surprised, or disappointed at the number of people here not willing to credit them with that kind of intelligence.

One last thing. I've had a door stick on an airliner. Not some cutting edge fighter made from extraterrestrial technolgies and hand-built one at a time, but a mass produced DC-9. It happens.

Perhaps the biggest critics here could do the world a favor and start designing these things. Then they could be perfect.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9279 times:

SlamClick, I apologize for being so harsh. It's not that I didn't know that those things happen, nor did I want to fire a shot at the F-22 programme. The canopy mechanism, as everything else, can fail to work properly. A German Mig-29 lost its canopy in midflight, which of course is worse. Imagine sitting in a convertible with an open top at the speed of sound. I was pissed about your remarks on my alleged lack of knowledge or enthusiasm for aviation, but that's no reason to piss back at you. Again, sorry for that.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 23):
I'm quite sure they chose a chainsaw over the ejection seat based on their knowledge rather than simply overlooking the idea.

Well, the report states that they contacted LM, so what they did was most likely the best solution. As it was already said before, an ejection would not only have caused an even higher bill*, but pose a higher risk to the pilot.
So no, the fact they used a chainsaw did not really come as surprise. Let alone that LM will probably cover the expenses, not the American tax-payer.

I was surprised, though, the pilot's rescuers were wearing flame suits.
I assume the seat was disarmed, an unintentional ejection was therefore unlikely. Many fighters have fuel tanks behind the cockpit, but I guess it was more a general precautionary measure.



I support the right to arm bears
25 Post contains links Egronenthal : More pictures, especially of cockpit interior afterwards: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...35m+F-22A+Raptor+after+canopy.html
26 SlamClick : From what little I actually know about ejection seats 'disarmed' is perhaps an overstatement. What you do, as far as I know, is put a pin in the hand
27 Checksixx : Not sure what you mean by that...I was refrencing a post above stating that the canopy may not blow off during ejection. In fact it would and would w
28 Checksixx : Thats a negative. -Check
29 SlamClick : I meant two things: 1. I am not qualified in the F-22 or any other fighter. 2. I have an unfortunate tendency to omit the first person singular prono
30 Post contains images Pilotpip : It's only been flying since 1989, I'm sure they'll get it right sooner or later Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself
31 CTR : Like many people you are making the false assumtion that the F-22 that was flown in competition against the F-23 16 years ago is the same aircraft no
32 Post contains images Oroka : You got a problem with someone, have the grey matter to make jest at them, not the country of millions of people. BTW, we had a very high scale milit
33 LMP737 : Oh yes, flush billions of dollars down the drain. Then spend billions more on an aircraft that is less capable than the F-22. Also, if you are going
34 SlamClick : Okay. here are a few observations for you: It is "an F-22" not "a F-22." Say it aloud a couple of times and see if it doesn't sound better. Ask a fri
35 MissedApproach : Yup, established in 1945 as A.V. Roe (Canada) Ltd. DeHavilland is pronounced "Bombardier" now, at least in Canada.
36 Post contains images Oroka : Here is my supporting evidence: This pilot obviously is not impressed with this aircraft. His desire to have access to a superior aircraft, say a Eur
37 Post contains images NoUFO :
38 Post contains images David L : Really? So what kind of English do we speak in the UK, where it's spelt "gobbling"? So, nothing that hasn 't been addressed above then. And I believe
39 LMP737 : Well I actually did think you were being serious. Mainly because you're knowledge of aviation matters seems to be a bit limited. By the way if you ar
40 Post contains images Oroka : Did you look in the dictionary next to 'sarcasm'? It is not spelled with an 'e'. It was a small jab at the fact that in the USA, they speak 'American
41 SlamClick : Obviously you are not much better at sarcasm than you are at grammAr and spelling. The above reply is ample evidence of either inferior education or
42 Oroka : Your are so right there SlamClick, my disregard of perfect grammar and spelling on a web board filled with amateurs, teenagers, and a light... excuse
43 MigFan : Wow! What do you drive? You may want to consider deactivating the airbag... If my office was in the cockpit of an F-22, plastic surgery would be need
44 Checksixx : You posted above on your little toon you made the figure of $338million per jet. Anyone knowledgeable would know that the R&D costs are NEVER factore
45 CTR : In a prior life (Reagan build up years) I designed canopys for fighter aircraft. If I were to wager a guess on what went wrong it would be canopy dis
46 Post contains images Boeing4ever : And here there are folks who think engineering a cockpit canopy is supposed to be easy. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
47 Post contains images Oroka : Sorry, it was the first price I found on google. I blame google. Just joking. I never said I know everything... just quite knowledgeable. Obviously t
48 Post contains images Boeing4ever : I'm flattered, but all credit should go to CTR. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
49 Post contains images Oroka : Oops, bit of a blunder on my part. CTR, thanks for the insite. Boeing4ever, thanks for pointing that out. I also found out that 'oops' is acceptable t
50 DeltaDC9 : Did you really not expect to get dog piled over that considering your flag? BTW, sorry, we speak English. There is no such language as "American", un
51 Post contains links Checksixx : They have at long last released the info publicly. Follow the link, watch the video....Let it go...Check http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=492366
52 Post contains images TedTAce : " target=_blank>http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp...23666 From Above: "The pilot also had to bear with the usual ribbing from his fellow flyers. We
53 Egronenthal : Latest update on this story... Aerospace Daily and Defense Report, published by the folks that also produce Aviation Week & Space Technology, reports
54 Vzlet : There have been other canopy incidents, as mentioned in a paper presented at the 1999 Society of Experimental Test Pilot convention: "The normal seque
55 NoUFO : Thanks Vzlet. What is OBOGS, the oxygen system? I saw several fighters taxiing with their canopy open, which apparently is impossible with an F-22a. D
56 Post contains links Vzlet : Yes, specifically an On-Board Oxygen Generating System. As a guess, if that is in fact the case, it may be related to the centralized control archite
57 NoUFO : Well, judging from your response #54 I thought it would be the case. Anyway, thanks for the response.
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