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Could An ME262 Wax An F86?  
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1643 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7735 times:

Given a mid-altitude merge, say Angels 25, could the superior aerodynamics of the 262 in that regime have led to a 262 kill against an 86, given equal pilot skills?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineF4wso From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 974 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7705 times:

It is always possible if you can get bullets into the adversary's plane of motion. Equal pilot skill does not equate to equal reactions or a "cookie cutter" method of handling an engagement. Another aspect to ponder is if the pilots were of equal skill, why would one choose to fight where their aircraft could be at a disadvantage?

The early jet era is the toughest air to air engagement arena I can imagine. There is limited beyond visual range acquisition. On board radars were mostly range only for the lead computing optical sight. There is that multivariable equation to solve of energy management, closure, and angle off compounded by the small weapons envelope of the 50 caliber machine gun. There was rarely much extra gas for more than a few turns.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA



Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7585 times:

25,000' is at the limits of the Me-262 manuvering altitude. It is a good altitude for the much faster F-86.

Why do you say the aerodynamics are superior on the Me-262 over the F-86? The North American designers and builders had the advantage of looking at Germen WWII technoligy to build it, including information on the Me-262 and Me-163. Plus the F-86 had leading edge slats for manuvering the Me-262 never had, and a much more swept wing.

Bring the fight down to 8,000' and the Me-262 has the advantage, with it's faster responding engines. That was the altitude the German twin jet fighter seemed to work best. It engaged B-17s and B-24s between 8,000' and 15,000' most of the time, and was able to stay way from the Mustang escorts, until it came time to land or take-off, then the P-51 ate it up.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

Only if he got the first shot and didn't miss.

You have to understand that the F-86 was really a second generation jet that learned the lessons from WWII. The same could be said of the Mig-15.

The P-80 is more of the 262's competitor.

The 45 degree wing, better visbility, and flying tail all work in the Sabre's favor.

But the Me-262 did have a heavier cannon armament, which also meant that if it got the first shot it would have a good chance of winning.



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User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7507 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
But the Me-262 did have a heavier cannon armament, which also meant that if it got the first shot it would have a good chance of winning.

The Korean era F-86s had 4 or 6 M-2 .50 calliber machine guns. The same era Mig-15 had 2 23mm cannons and 2 machine guns (on a lowerable pallet). So the F-86 was out gunned in Korea, but, it had an 18:1 kill advantage over the Mig-15.

Being able to out manuver your opponent carries a lot when you are out gunned.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13155 posts, RR: 78
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7400 times:

The Me-262's engines would have to keep working first, which they were not known for.

Given the right circumstances, older, worse performing aircraft can win out.
At least one Mig-15 was shot down by a Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm Hawker Fury piston engined fighter in Korea, who operated in the attack role.


User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7367 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
and was able to stay way from the Mustang escorts, until it came time to land or take-off, then the P-51 ate it up.

It did not take the P-51 pilots long to figure out how to take on the 262. Quite a few were shot down in air to air. More than you apparantly think.

Tactics are key, just like the harriers in the Falkland War took on faster planes and won the day.

Quote from an actual Mustang Pilot:
"I did see ME262s but was never in a position to shoot one down. The ME262 jet fighters were about 100 knots faster than the Mustang. However, if they tried to engage the P51 in a turning dogfight they would quickly lose the advantage as we could easily out turn the ME262. Our 357th Fighter Group shot down 17 ME262’s, the most in the 8th Air Force."

100 262's were shot down while they only claimed 150 allied aircraft. 1400 were built but only 200 or so ever flew in the same time period. They were not all that. P-47s also shot them down.

[Edited 2006-04-26 21:47:21]


Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7349 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
So the F-86 was out gunned in Korea, but, it had an 18:1 kill advantage over the Mig-15.

Which isn't exactly proven. The Russians claim similar numbers in favor of the Mig 15...

pelican


User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1607 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7349 times:
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Quoting ThirtyEcho (Thread starter):
Given a mid-altitude merge, say Angels 25, could the superior aerodynamics of the 262 in that regime have led to a 262 kill against an 86, given equal pilot skills?

I've looked in depth at the aerodynamic design of the Me 262 and the F-86. The F-86 was superior, just as it should have been, as it was a later design.

One thing I've noticed is that in most of the interviews of famous test pilots, such as Yeager and Hoover, when asked what their favorite aircraft was, the invariably say: the F-86.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7307 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 7):
The Russians claim similar numbers in favor of the Mig 15...

May I complete this sentence...."The Russians are full of ____"

I am not going to claim that the numbers are right, but there is no way the US got the worst end of that deal.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7272 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
So the F-86 was out gunned in Korea, but, it had an 18:1 kill advantage over the Mig-15

Honestly, I can't believe in such a difference. While I can accept lower training requirements on North that led to somewhat less experienced pilots, this ration looks absurd to me.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 9):
I am not going to claim that the numbers are right, but there is no way the US got the worst end of that deal.

Actually, why no way?


User currently offlineWaterpolodan From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7202 times:

I think I recall reading somewhere that the Soviet's claims for MiG 15 kills coudl very well be true, if they are only taking the highly trained Russian pilots that secretly flew many missions into account, while the US's number encompasses the north korean pilots as well, who were shot down at a much greater rate...

User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7183 times:

First, sorry for hijacking this thread. I had this Mig-15 vs. F-86 thing in my mind for quite some time.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 9):
May I complete this sentence...."The Russians are full of ____"

I am not going to claim that the numbers are right, but there is no way the US got the worst end of that deal.

Well, I'm not claiming the Russians are right. I don't believe in statistics provided by US forces, what fool would I've to be to believe in Soviet AF statistics?
Maybe we should start a thread F-86 vs. Mig-15.

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 11):
if they are only taking the highly trained Russian pilots that secretly flew many missions into account, while the US's number encompasses the north korean pilots as well,

This makes sense and could explain some differences.

pelican


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7149 times:

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 11):
I think I recall reading somewhere that the Soviet's claims for MiG 15 kills coudl very well be true, if they are only taking the highly trained Russian pilots that secretly flew many missions into account, while the US's number encompasses the north korean pilots as well, who were shot down at a much greater rate...

I can see that.

Don't think I still believe it but I can see that point.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRC135U From United States of America, joined May 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7147 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 9):
May I complete this sentence...."The Russians are full of ____"

The Russian word for that would be "govno". Don't have a cyrillic keyboard handy.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13155 posts, RR: 78
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

No doubt USAF F-86's pilots were much better trained than Chinese or N.Korean pilots, better than USSR ones too, but the margin was probably rather less there.

Though the F-86's 6 x .50 guns were really obselete, in a close in fight they were probably a better deal than 2 x 23mm and certainly the slow firing 37mm.
The Mig-15's gun choice was made with bringing down bombers in mind, whilst the F-86 had a more general purpose role.
The ideal would have been 4 x 20mm for F-86.

Tactics too, you can bet the N.Korean and Chinese were more rigid, after all, their main role was bringing down B-29's.B-50's.
Interception was the priority, not fighter sweeps.
USSR elite pilots probably were rather more independent minded, more experienced, more flexible, were there any WW2 vets with the USSR crews?


User currently offlineRC135U From United States of America, joined May 2005, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6997 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
The ideal would have been 4 x 20mm for F-86.

Which is what the F-86H-5s and H-10s were equipped with when delivered in 1955-56, obviously post-Korean War.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6995 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 15):
USSR elite pilots probably were rather more independent minded, more experienced, more flexible, were there any WW2 vets with the USSR crews?

I wouldn't be surprised if there where WWII vets there, there certainly was flying US aircraft.

Those guys probably had more initiative then in other eastern fighter interception schemes.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFTOHIST From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6886 times:

The F-86 vs. Soviet MiG-15 issue will never be settled. For the sake of arguing, it all depends on who you'd rather believe. Both sides have long published their exaggerated accounts, and it's too difficult or impossible to find the real numbers after more than 50 years.

Russia has recently admitted that there were 345 Soviet-flown MiG-15's shot down by aircraft of all types. U.S totals range from 150 to more than 200 F-86's lost, but these numbers reflect losses of all types, including ground fire and accidents.

If you really wanted to know the exact numbers, you would need to know that the data from U.S. and Soviet sources is 100% correct. Would anyone be able to say they absolutely believe one side or the other? I wouldn't.


User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6836 times:

Quoting FTOHIST (Reply 18):
Would anyone be able to say they absolutely believe one side or the other? I wouldn't.

I would trust the numbers of the much more open society. In that period, the Russians lied about a lot of things. How do you cover up American pilots not coming home? They had no problem doing that, or covering up the fact that they held Americans prisoner.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
I would trust the numbers of the much more open society. In that period, the Russians lied about a lot of things. How do you cover up American pilots not coming home? They had no problem doing that, or covering up the fact that they held Americans prisoner.

True. It is fallacious to say that since you cannot trust anybody completely, everybody is EQUALLY untrustworthy. Its related to the old cold war moral equivalence BS, that is, the belief that since the US and the USSR both did bad things there was nothing to choose between them.

All people and societies have problems. All people, and all societies, are dishonest to some degree. We are all sinners. But some societies are better, and/or more honest than others. In the case of the cold war, nobody was innocent. But any reasonable people could see which side was more honest, open, and generally benevolent overall . That's how cold warriors like Kennedy and Reagan got elected, to the disappointment of many so-called intellectuals.

As for the 18-1 claimed ratio from the US, I thought that was based on claimed kills. That is usually an inflated number compared to actual kills. The actual ratio would be a lower number, but probably still in the double digits. North Korea is still a closed society, so it is still hard to get actual numbers today. Claims that the reverse ratio was actualy so are so absurd as to be laughable - but those are the sort of claims tyranical governments make and, often, get away with.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29786 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 20):
I thought that was based on claimed kills. That is usually an inflated number compared to actual kills.

In fighters with gun camera footage I don't think it is nearly as inflated as we would see in say the claims by gun crews on B-17's over Germany.

So while it might be lower, I still would expect it to be heavily in favor of the US.

The other thing that needs to be considered is that most air-air was over the north, so they would have been able to hide their losses to a greater extent.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineF4wso From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 974 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6647 times:

I try not to get wrapped on the specific numbers but concentrate more on whether or not the objectives were achieved. Using a sports metaphor, was the ball able to be moved down field.
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA



Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
User currently offlineFTOHIST From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6629 times:

I do too, but sometimes I get carried away trying to find a more accurate number especially when I get the feeling that some are questioning what actually happened.

I fully believe that at the end of the day, the U.S. acheived about a 10:1 kill ratio in Korea. I think that is a number which is easily proved. As far as how many F-86's were actually shot down, it's rather easy to compare serial numbers of aircraft that were sent to Korea and which ones returned (if you're so inclined to do the research). That in itself would prove that there was not a high kill ratio in favor of Soviet-flown MiG's.

Maybe one could make a case in favor of the MiG against the early models of the Sabre, but it's somewhat more difficult. You'd have to determine what model F-86 was shot down by what type of aircraft during the time period the Soviets flew the MiG.

I know it sounds like I am getting carried away with finding the almighty truth, but this thread is not the first place I've heard something about the Soviets bettering the F-86 by a large ratio.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6610 times:

I think both the F86 & Mig15 had much of the Focke-Wulf Ta 183 in their design (Hans Multhopp).

This aircraft was selected in Germany as successor of the late thirties Me262

Some of the same folks that worked on the Me262 worked on the F86 and many other fighter of that generation 10-15 years later (also Saab Tunnan).

Practicality / speed became before honor, pride & glory those days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Ta_183
http://luft46.volga.ru/fw/ta183-ii.html


25 F4wso : I do appreciate serious historical research as the best way to keep from perpetuating myth and hearsay. In the spirit of the original topic. The A-1
26 DL021 : two aerial victories using 20mm guns....they could turn inside of any jet and go slower at a rapid rate which allowed them some interesting one-time
27 MigFan : I think it all depends on who sees who first. The F-86 is a better aircraft in my opinion, although the Me-262 is prettier! I do not think it is an im
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