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Space Shuttle ...delays In Program  
User currently offlineEksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1305 posts, RR: 25
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3071 times:
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I was thinking earlier today given all the issues with the delay of the A380. Doesn't the delays in the Shuttle program makes the A380's problem seem minor?...I guess if the program was run by a for-profit , customers (i.e. us the taxpayer) would be pissed,eh?...Or should we be more pissed right now as this is our money? I really hope they program gets back on schedule!

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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Apples and oranges. NASA won't manage to get back to the proposed 80s schedule with shuttle launches every week or month.


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User currently offlineThorny From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting Eksath (Thread starter):
I was thinking earlier today given all the issues with the delay of the A380. Doesn't the delays in the Shuttle program makes the A380's problem seem minor?

Of course. However, Shuttle was a rather more ambitious project...

Shuttle: World's first reusable manned spacecraft and partially reusable launch vehicle
A380: Jumbo airliner 25% larger than the existing largest airliner.

Shuttle: World's most powerful existing launch vehicle (~60,000 lbs. to Low Earth Orbit)
A380: World's second-largest (soon to be) operational aircraft, behind An124.

Shuttle: Required new technologies for thermal protection and high performance reusable cryogenic engines.
A380: No new technologies.

Shuttle: Required development of world's most reliable computer software (HAL/S).
A380: Off-the-shelf avionics.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Quoting Thorny (Reply 2):
No new technologies.

This is not quite true. I'd say that the stuff that's 'new' on the 380 is more refinement of previous technology.

Other points taken.

Quoting Eksath (Thread starter):
..I guess if the program was run by a for-profit , customers (i.e. us the taxpayer) would be pissed,eh?.

Yeah, well, originally that was AN aspect of the plan, and in fact there were a couple of commercial launches on the STS. Once Challenger was lost, it was effectively over for the commercial side, and ANY hope that the accelerated launch schedule would EVER happen. It honestly is a shame that in a nation as proud an powerful as we are that we don't have a manner of launching reliably every week. while it might not be totally necessary, proving that something like that could be done would have been amazing.

PS Thorny.. what was the FASTEST an OV was turned around?


User currently offlineThorny From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
PS Thorny.. what was the FASTEST an OV was turned around?

Atlantis' 51 days between the landing of STS-51J on 7 Oct 85 and the launch of STS-61B on 27 Nov 85.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

Quoting Thorny (Reply 4):

Atlantis' 51 days between the landing of STS-51J on 7 Oct 85 and the launch of STS-61B on 27 Nov 85.

Thank you sir  Smile


User currently offlineTexfly101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting Eksath (Thread starter):
Doesn't the delays in the Shuttle program makes the A380's problem seem minor?



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 1):
Apples and oranges.

The Shuttle and the A380 are not in the same genre at all. The A380 is a production aircraft in the commercial aviation world meant for daily flight. The Shuttle's are truely experimental aircraft, each one of them different from the other, and operate in the environs of launch, orbit, and de-orbit, spending very little time flying in the atmosphere. They are not airplanes. They were never meant to be flown like a commercial aircraft, the Space Transportation System name was purely political in order to get support for the project. It has never been able to even approach the stated launch frequencies, as NASA always knew would be the case. Add in that the shuttle has a predicted failure rate of 1 in 200 MTBF, which amazingly is just about what the actual MTBF has turned out to be. I don't think the A380 is designed to crash every 200 flights. Every time a shuttle is launched and landed, it goes thru a total and complete tear down, inspection, the motors basically rebuilt, all systems totally checked, systems validated, a very thorough checklist gone thru and months spent prepping it for the next launch. Each crew is different, trained for a specific mission, spending the better part of two years in the planning and execution. So the delays are both expected and normal, no matter what the press is told. To us that worked on the shuttle, when it gets off the ground and into orbit, we cheer and rejoice, its a definite success, no matter how many or how long the delays were.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

Quoting Texfly101 (Reply 6):
total and complete tear down

 redflag  If that was the case why did it take them 15 years to figure out the rudder actuators were manufactured improperly? You'd also be seeing a neat OV at the pad, with no scarring to the TPS. There are quite enough things to take care of to 'turn and burn' an OV without TOTALLY taking it apart. I'm sure Thorny has a list or if you need I'll get you in touch with SATL382G.


User currently offlineThorny From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
If that was the case why did it take them 15 years to figure out the rudder actuators were manufactured improperly? You'd also be seeing a neat OV at the pad, with no scarring to the TPS. There are quite enough things to take care of to 'turn and burn' an OV without TOTALLY taking it apart.

Yeah, Texfly is overstating things a little, but not a lot. Some things, like the tearing down of the Main Engines between each flight, are no longer necessary. Rocketdyne says the SSMEs are certified to go six flights between overhaul (since the Block 1A and Block II upgrades) but NASA still does it anyway. That NASA doesn't completely overhaul the Shuttles every flight was clearly evidenced by the 1999 wiring troubles, the 1997 Columbia EVA hatch failure, and, as you say, the belated discovery of improperly installed rudder actuators, among others.


User currently offlineTexfly101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

Quoting Thorny (Reply 8):
Yeah, Texfly is overstating things a little, but not a lot.

Thanks Thorny, and yes, a bit of overstatement might be in my post (I didn't mean that EVERY part was taken apart, but it could be read that way). But basically, I was trying to say that the Shuttle has always been a high maintenance vehicle that was never capable of quick turnarounds, that delays are the norm. The design, being of the 70's era, was pushing the technology limits and has always been one where every launch has its own share of different problems that are both unforseen and unable to be planned for years into the future. The Shuttles have always been under upgrades, replacing systems and parts with newer technologies, correcting safety issues, replacing parts that are found to be deficient, etc. Trying to accelerate the launch schedules only brought the realization that it couldn't happen, delays are the norm, not the exception. The A380 delays are abnormal and won't be a normal part of their operation. The Shuttle's delays are normal and will always be a part of their operation.


User currently offlineTexfly101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 7):
I'm sure Thorny has a list or if you need I'll get you in touch with SATL382G.

thanks very much anyway, I'll just use mine... Smile


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